Death Ed

[Carolla]

Yes - "if" is the proper word for YOU jae. Now move on. There is no need to keep beating this.

 

[Mendalla]

The way Gordon worded it says that for everyone there must come a "when" - a time after which they will no longer receive medical care. This is utter nonsense. Some of us want to be kept alive at all cost. The proper operative word is "if."

Then make sure your Yobo and other family members (esp. ones you give a PoA for personal care to) know that and that you have appropriate written instructions on file. Once you're incapacitated, your PoA for care makes these decisions, not you.

 

[Jae]

Then make sure your Yobo and other family members (esp. ones you give a PoA for personal care to) know that and that you have appropriate written instructions on file. Once you're incapacitated, your PoA for care makes these decisions, not you.

Thankfully, Yobo is a Christian as I am and believes in life.

 

[chansen]

The way Gordon worded it says that for everyone there must come a "when" - a time after which they will no longer receive medical care. This is utter nonsense. Some of us want to be kept alive at all cost. The proper operative word is "if."

Does there exist an argument so pointless, even you wouldn't start it?

 

[Mendalla]

Thankfully, Yobo is a Christian as I am and believes in life.

I believe in life but I also believe in death, being the end of said life, as a natural, proper part of living and that that end is not necessarily undesirable.

Back sort of on topic. One thing that needs to be a part of death ed, perhaps more for older teens and adults, is exploring the values we hold. Jae and I clearly have rather different visions of what death is about and how it fits into existence and therefore hold rather different values around what is right and wrong around death. Without knowing your values, how do you make decisions or give instructions to a PoA? I'm not saying we should espouse a particular set of values, but rather provide the questions, readings, etc. that allow people to understand their own values and where those values come from.

 

[revjohn]

It's still something of a taboo subject of discussion in many circles, which doesn't serve us well.

True enough.

What do you think?

I think it would be fairly easy to work into any Provincial Health Curriculum. Haven't had any protests about a health curriculum for a few months now.

The question that begs is when to introduce it? Death is something we meet in one way or another when it is convenient for death not us. No matter when we plan to introduce it odds are strong it is going to make us kick ourselves and wish we had done it sooner.

I think the biggest problem surrounding any death event is what we allow to come out of our mouths when we fear silence and have nothing meaningful to fill the silence with.

First lesson about being pastoral should probably be how to shut the hell up and not say anything. What moron thinks that they are so graced with the gift of gab that they can just open their mouth and let their brains spill out and that will solve every griever's pain?

That might be more advanced stuff than elementary or secondary students can grasp. Heck, adults have a hard enough time learning that lesson.

Death ed might help us know what options exist and what realities present themselves in the death event.

Since every death is more or less a unique event (in the constellation of our lives at any rate) it is hard to be prepared for every and any death we might bump into unawares.

 

[Jae]

Does there exist an argument so pointless, even you wouldn't start it?

Which is the better ice cream - Tiger Tail or Butter Brickle.

 

[Jae]

Back sort of on topic. One thing that needs to be a part of death ed, perhaps more for older teens and adults, is exploring the values we hold. Jae and I clearly have rather different visions of what death is about and how it fits into existence and therefore hold rather different values around what is right and wrong around death.

This actually highlights the problem with having Death Ed - whose values do you teach in such a program.

 

[Mendalla]

This actually highlights the problem with having Death Ed - whose values do you teach in such a program.

You don't teach values. You help students explore and understand their own values and discuss them. You don't present and defend a particular set of values as a fait accompli, you present options. Some say kids can't handle that kind of education but decades of Unitarian and UU curricula say otherwise.

If you want a particular set of values taught, that's why Sunday School, home schooling, and religious schools exist.

A secular system needs to be predicated on giving them tools, not particular teachings (or should be).

I know it does not always work out that way (my son's civics teacher was very outspoken politically which is exactly not how to teach civics), but that should be the goal of the curriculum.

 

[Waterfall]

indeed, more and more you see the line "at request of the deceased there will e no service" in obituaries. THis is a mistake IMO. HEalthy grieving is facilitated by a gathering to share stories and to share grief.

But this can also be a financial practicality. Funerals can be expensive even for a simple one. This could even be welcomed by those in the family who would have to kick in for their elderly Mom/Dad who have exhausted their savings through health care.

Another thing is that many have outlived their friends and family is enough even without the funeral home services expense.

 

[Jae]

You don't teach values. You help students explore and understand their own values and discuss them. You don't present and defend a particular set of values as a fait accompli, you present options. Some say kids can't handle that kind of education but decades of Unitarian and UU curricula say otherwise.

If you want a particular set of values taught, that's why Sunday School, home schooling, and religious schools exist.

A secular system needs to be predicated on giving them tools, not particular teachings (or should be).

I know it does not always work out that way (my son's civics teacher was very outspoken politically which is exactly not how to teach civics), but that should be the goal of the curriculum.

Although I know you'll detest my saying this - that's the same kind of thing people said when Sex Ed was first introduced Mendalla. But now, there are values taught my friend, don't worry about that. Gone are the days when abstinence was even mentioned as a choice. Now it's pushed at kids - have fun, fun, fun - so long as you use condoms!

 

[Mendalla]

But this can also be a financial practicality. Funerals can be expensive even for a simple one. This could even be welcomed by those in the family who would have to kick in for their elderly Mom/Dad who have exhausted their savings through health care.

Another thing is that many have outlived their friends and family is enough even without the funeral home services expense.

I could see it in a situation like that. If the family really does not want a funeral or the expense is a problem, then that is fine. But if they want one, if they think the expense is worth it, it should be their decision, and not that of the deceased, to have one. They are the ones dealing with grief, not the deceased.

 

[Carolla]

Often is the gathering together, the story telling, the remembering & honouring the person who has died that can be so important - along with the religious observance if that is part of a person's tradition. I've seen such gatherings occur at a local bar, at a park for a picnic, in a hall ... so there are options that can be lower cost. But just to even know that these options exist can be helpful for some. Funeral homes are certainly NOT low cost. Which is another whole thread possibly!

A neighbour's dad recently died & mom said he did NOT want a funeral - but dtrs wanted a gathering - which they had at the golf club on Sunday afternoon - and it was lovely. Lots of photos, some words of remembrance, a gathering of friends and family.


The issue of most friends & family have predeceased one, is true for those living into the 'old-old' category. I do hear patients talk about the loneliness they encounter at this phase of life - it's often not easy. My own Dad is 91; not particularly outgoing socially; has lived in the community where he will likely die for only about 10 years - no roots there. So I can't even imagine who might show up to a visitation, if anyone. He has 'taken care of' all his arrangements - as he naturally would do, liking to be in control of all matters! - so on my last visit I had to gently inquire about what those might be - his initial response was - "you don't have to worry about anything - just call the funeral home", so it took a bit of gentle discussion to learn that cremation will occur, where he plans his ashes to be buried etc. Interesting times.

 

[chansen]

Although I know you'll detest my saying this - that's the same kind of thing people said when Sex Ed was first introduced Mendalla. But now, there are values taught my friend, don't worry about that. Gone are the days when abstinence was even mentioned as a choice. Now it's pushed at kids - have fun, fun, fun - so long as you use condoms!

Abstinence is always a choice, and it's presented as a healthy choice in the curriculum. That argument is a complete dead end.

There are parallels between "death ed" and "sex ed" when it comes to religious interference. Whether we're talking about sex or end-of-life decision making, some religious groups want to impose their make-believe rules on the back of their make-believe authority. No one who doesn't follow your exact version of a deity cares about what your deity wants. You need better reasons than that to be taken seriously outside of your own religion.

 

[paradox3]

ANd most important...have the discussion with ALL your children, not just the one you communicate with the best. Same goes for things like wishes/intentions.desires around when to stop providing medical care.

Also worth keeping in mind that postponing the conversation indefinitely is not a good idea. It is much more difficult when cognitive issues start coming into the mix.

 

[GordW]

But this can also be a financial practicality. Funerals can be expensive even for a simple one. This could even be welcomed by those in the family who would have to kick in for their elderly Mom/Dad who have exhausted their savings through health care.

Another thing is that many have outlived their friends and family is enough even without the funeral home services expense.

I didn't say a funeral. I said a gathering. Which may have little cost to it. A lot of the costs will happen anyway, because you still need to deal with the body in some form. But having a potluck at the local hall where folks can tell stories and share grief might be cheap.

At the same time I have done a service for someone with no family and friends to mourn. THe only folks in attendance were some of the support workers who had met her. It was sad.

 

[Waterfall]

At the same time I have done a service for someone with no family and friends to mourn. THe only folks in attendance were some of the support workers who had met her. It was sad.

This happens more than some people think, and they don't have to be old, just changed and people stop coming to visit. The stroke victim, the alzheimer patient, those in a long term vegetative state after a drug overdose or car accident, advanced MS, ALS etc.....
Some will say they said their goodbyes a long time ago.

Then there is also the reality that someone has to eventually be last after all their friends and relatives have died.....with smaller families these days, it wouldn't take long for that to happen.

 

[Seeler]

As I understand, there are certain costs after a death whether there is a funeral or not. A undertaker has to be involved to pick up the body and prepare it for cremation or burial. Transportation. Cost of cremation. Paper work - the government needs to be informed of the death. So, unless the body is donated and accepted, or there is no family and the body is abandoned at the morgue - there will be expenses.

Funerals can be very expensive depending upon what is requested. Or they can be very simple. I've been to visitations, funerals, memorial services (or whatever) held in church parlors or in the sanctuary, that cost very little, receptions provided by the UCW for a donation. The same with grave side services in country graveyards belonging to a church or to the community. Minimual charge, or a donation to the gravediggers.

I think a time to get together, friends, family, neighbours, to share memories, to offer condolences, to say good-bye and have closure - all this is very important.

True, I've been to funerals where I represented the Trust Company where the only other mourners could be counted on two hands with fingers to spare. I've also been to funerals where the widow (or brother) have exclaimed "Look at all the people who have come. I had no idea he had so many people who cared."

 

[Carolla]

Interesting points Seeler about funeral homes being required participants after a death. I was at a presentation at work today, and I learned that when a pregnancy is terminated (voluntarily or otherwise) at 20 weeks gestation or more, that a funeral home must, by law in Ontario, be involved. Not something I had known. And yes, expensive.

 

[Pinga]

Before 20 weeks, defined as a miscarriage.
After 20 weeks, defined as a stillbirth
If breathes on own, then dies, defined as a birth & subsequent death.

Our twins were the last category: death. Funeral home was selected, who performed cremation. Service was at our church.
My late miscarriage was the first. Although not required, we wanted confirmation of gender, as well as we didn't want them disposed of as medical remains (like an arm, or other). Engaged a funeral home who took receipt, and had cremated on our behalf and supplied ashes.

I can tell you that the funeral homes were wonderful in both circumstances. In both cases, it was not that expensive. I guess it depends on the funeral home, and your thoughts re expense. (Actually the funeral home waived their fees if I remember correctly, and only charged for cremation / transportation costs)

 

[Carolla]

Thank you pinga for sharing your experience, sad and difficult as it must have been. I'm glad to hear of the compassionate care provided by the funeral home staff.