Can one follow Christ and not be a "Christian"?

[Ritafee]

Having friends from many ethnicities and seeing the hatred between these different cults too. Did cause me to become a humanist, and to help humanity in best way I can.

So you and the character that people ascribe to Jesus have a lot in common. "if it looks like a duck..."

But in reality ... only man made laws are rational

Thousands of gay men granted posthumous pardons under 'Turing's Law'

Thousands of men convicted of now-abolished sexual offenses have been posthumously pardoned

• But those still alive will have to apply for a pardon

 

[BetteTheRed]

But 'government' is simply how people organize themselves in large groups. Necessary evil to some extent. I suppose the same might be said of religion. A religious community, of whatever sort, might best be judged by the success of their interaction with the wider neighbourhood to its greatest benefit. A government should, theoretically, be held to the same standard. Municipal governments seem most likely to be successful at this, due to the closeness of their work to the ground, so to speak (and the relative lowness of the remuneration to some extent, I suspect).

 

[Ritafee]

In Canada ... to the best of my knowledge there is no 'religious' community that can 'enforce' their preferred order of conduct on an indivdual or group by any means outside of 'government legislation'.

 

[Luce NDs]

In Canada ... to the best of my knowledge there is no 'religious' community that can 'enforce' their preferred order of conduct on an indivdual or group by any means outside of 'government legislation'.

Does that stop the emotional attempts?

 

[BetteTheRed]

In Canada ... to the best of my knowledge there is no 'religious' community that can 'enforce' their preferred order of conduct on an indivdual or group by any means outside of 'government legislation'.

I'm not sure how this follows in response to what I said. Seems to me that people in large numbers need some minimal social contract to look after each other, at least. Building a society around that social contract requires a "government" of sorts.

Religious communities seem to form naturally out of some sort of social spiritual needs in humanity, perhaps that "longing" you mention. I don't think they are forced on humans from above. I also agree that they're not created equal. However, even the very worst community at least transforms lonely angry bitter old people into less-lonely people, even if still angry, bitter and old...

 

[Ritafee]

Religion and Government are two sides of the same man-dated coins.
Jesus was an anarchist and an atheist when it came to the way of worldly government and graven image religions.

 

[Ritafee]

@GeoFee ... thank you for introducing me to ...

Jacques Ellul (1912-1994) philosopher, sociologist, and lay Christian theologian who said ...

• History shows that faith can turn into belief, though belief cannot become faith.
  
• Faith undergoes this metamorphosis… when it takes fixed form in definitive and unchangeable affirmations; when it thinks it can force people to recognize the truth of its God.
• Whenever any of these things takes place, there is no more faith but belief in institutional religion.

He also said, something about the subject of belief itself ...

• Two words call for notice, ‘faith’ and ‘belief.’
• We have an annoying tendency to confuse the two.
  
• Belief is an everyday matter and sets the foundation for all that constitutes our existence…
  
• Faith is very different---it is addressed to 'God'.
  
• Faith in a God who is not an abstract hypostatized projection of one of our own desires or aspirations or values…
  
• Faith in a God who is different from all that we can conceive or imagine---cannot be assimilated to belief…
  
• The God of faith is so fundamentally other… that we can neither define nor contemplate it ...

I am longing for Faith - not organized religion/government.

Jesus demonstrates faith ... true freedom in service to the benefit of one humanity in all of it's diversity.

 

[Luce NDs]

@GeoFee ... thank you for introducing me to ...

Jacques Ellul (1912-1994) philosopher, sociologist, and lay Christian theologian who said ...

• History shows that faith can turn into belief, though belief cannot become faith.
  
• Faith undergoes this metamorphosis… when it takes fixed form in definitive and unchangeable affirmations; when it thinks it can force people to recognize the truth of its God.
• Whenever any of these things takes place, there is no more faith but belief in institutional religion.

He also said, something about the subject of belief itself ...

• Two words call for notice, ‘faith’ and ‘belief.’
• We have an annoying tendency to confuse the two.
  
• Belief is an everyday matter and sets the foundation for all that constitutes our existence…
  
• Faith is very different---it is addressed to 'God'.
  
• Faith in a God who is not an abstract hypostatized projection of one of our own desires or aspirations or values…
  
• Faith in a God who is different from all that we can conceive or imagine---cannot be assimilated to belief…
  
• The God of faith is so fundamentally other… that we can neither define nor contemplate it ...

I am longing for Faith - not organized religion/government.

Jesus demonstrates faith ... true freedom in service to the benefit of one humanity in all of it's diversity.

So strange for mortals to understand ... given their propensity to despise and eliminate the stranger ... contrary to the book of how it should be done by decree ... a' roue 's?

 

[Pavlos Maros]

The argument could be made that it is Love's effects that are visible but Love itself is not, being a pattern of chemical and neural activity inside the brain and body.

With that very same logic you could claim the entire universe is invisible. We know that it’s out there. We can see some of it via telescopes. But we can’t fathom the extent of the universe or if it actually has an end.

Much like the fundamental forces of nature (gravity, electromagnetism, et al.). We can see the apple fall but we don't see the warping of spacetime that causes it to do so. We see the iron bar lifted by the magnet, but don't see the field lines without doing some kind of experiment like putting the magnet on a sheet of paper covered with iron filings (and even then, we are using the effects to make them visible rather than actually "seeing" the lines of force).

I'm a literalist and as such, when someone says invisible they mean it literally. IE Unable, to be seen, which I'm afraid includes it's effects. Which can be seen.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Fixed it for you

Lol. You actually fixed it for yourself.

But in reality ... only man made laws are rational

No. But they are all human constructs. Most laws are relative.
Scientific laws, however, those you have to adhere too.

Thousands of gay men granted posthumous pardons under 'Turing's Law'

Thousands of men convicted of now-abolished sexual offenses have been posthumously pardoned

• But those still alive will have to apply for a pardon

Relevance?

 

[Luce NDs]

With that very same logic you could claim the entire universe is invisible. We know that it’s out there. We can see some of it via telescopes. But we can’t fathom the extent of the universe or if it actually has an end.
I'm a literalist and as such, when someone says invisible they mean it literally. IE Unable, to be seen, which I'm afraid includes it's effects. Which can be seen.

Can darkness be seen or just the absence detected by contrast ... thin spots ... grey thoughts ... not completely black ...

 

[Ritafee]

Scientific laws, however, those you have to adhere too.

Such as?

 

[Mendalla]

Such as?

Gravity. Ever been able to step off a cliff and not fall? Though the idea of scientific "laws" should really be banished. So-called "laws of science" are really just well-tested theories. The notion of them as "laws" goes back to the period when scientists tended to believe they were figuring out how God put things together. General relativity is as well tested as Newtonian mechanics at this point and we don't call it a "law".

 

[BetteTheRed]

Such as?

I think he means that there is no choice, i.e. if a glass leaves your hand involuntarily, the law of gravity says it must fall downwards, not upwards?

 

[unsafe]

The law of Lift can supersede the law of Gravity ---an aircraft is an example

The Bible says that Enoch ---Elijah and Jesus we taken upward ----this also supersedes the law of Gravity -----

unsafe says-----This is an interesting article on Gravity and unsafe ----POSTED ARTICLE ---

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: GRAVITY FROM A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE

GRAVITY FROM A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE

Don B. DeYoung states in the Oct 1994 issue of 'Impact', pp. 1-3:

'Gravity holds us firmly on the ground and also keeps the earth circling the sun. It draws rain from the sky and causes the tides. This mysterious gravity force continues to puzzle scientists even as it gives stability to the universe. How is gravity able to act across empty space, and why does it exist in the first place? Science has never been very successful in explaining such 'natural' laws. After all, these universal rules cannot slowly arise by mutation or natural selection; they have been here since the very beginning. Gravity, as well as every other intricate physical law and constant, is actually an absolute testimony to creation.'.......

Two Bible verses especially help us understand the nature of gravity. First, Colossians 1:17 explains that Christ is before all things, and by Him all things consist. The Greek verb for 'consist' (sunistano) means to cohere, preserve, or hold together.....The word is used in Colossians in the perfect tense, which describes a present continuing state arising from past action. This perfect tense also implies permanence of the act of holding the universe together......If the Lord turned His back on the universe for one moment, instant chaos would result. Without gravity, the earth, moon, and stars would immediately disintegrate.

A second reference, Hebrews 1:3, declares that Christ upholds all things by the word of His power, Uphold (Greek, enegko) again describes the sustaining or maintaining of all things, including gravity. The word uphold means much more than simply supporting a weight. It includes control of all the ongoing motions and changes within the universe....."

 

[Mendalla]

The law of Lift can supersede the law of Gravity ---an aircraft is an example

There is no "law of lift" and the law of gravity is not being superseded by aircraft. Gravity still pulls on the plane, it's just that the Bernoulli effect around the wings generates enough upward force to overcome it. And planes make use of gravity, too. Descending involves reducing the lift in various ways so that gravity is not longer being resisted with enough force to overcome it.

Similarly, rockets do not "supersede gravity" but use another of Newton's laws (the third law of motion) to generate sufficient force to overcome it.

 

[unsafe]

What is the law of lift?

An airfoil generates lift by exerting a downward force on the air as it flows past. According to Newton's third law, the air must exert an equal and opposite (upward) force on the airfoil, which is the lift. The air flow changes direction as it passes the airfoil and follows a path that is curved downward.



How do planes defy the law of gravity?

The plane defies gravity by travelling at a critical velocity beyond which the lift caused by the wings( which acts on the Centre of Gravity of an Aircraft) negates and starts exceeding the force of gravity acting on the Aircraft....


How does gravity affect the flight of an airplane?

When an airplane flies, it must first overcome two primary forces--weight and drag. Weight is the force of gravity acting to pull the plane to the ground, and it is overcome through lift. Lift results in the plane rising into the air.


How do planes fly against the force of gravity?

Two forces work against flight: drag and gravity. A wing has to be designed not only to produce lift, but also to minimize the friction with passing air, which causes drag. Every airplane has a specific takeoff speed, where lift overcomes gravity. ... A more tilted wing allows more lift to be created at a lower speed.

 

[Mendalla]

What is the law of lift?

An airfoil generates lift by exerting a downward force on the air as it flows past. According to Newton's third law, the air must exert an equal and opposite (upward) force on the airfoil, which is the lift. The air flow changes direction as it passes the airfoil and follows a path that is curved downward.



How do planes defy the law of gravity?

The plane defies gravity by travelling at a critical velocity beyond which the lift caused by the wings( which acts on the Centre of Gravity of an Aircraft) negates and starts exceeding the force of gravity acting on the Aircraft....


How does gravity affect the flight of an airplane?

When an airplane flies, it must first overcome two primary forces--weight and drag. Weight is the force of gravity acting to pull the plane to the ground, and it is overcome through lift. Lift results in the plane rising into the air.


How do planes fly against the force of gravity?

Two forces work against flight: drag and gravity. A wing has to be designed not only to produce lift, but also to minimize the friction with passing air, which causes drag. Every airplane has a specific takeoff speed, where lift overcomes gravity. ... A more tilted wing allows more lift to be created at a lower speed.

And nowhere does that say "supersedes gravity". It says "defies" or "overcomes", which are correct and agree with what I said.

 

[unsafe]

Mendalla ---your quote ----And nowhere does that say "supersedes gravity". It says "defies" or "overcomes", which are correct and agree with what I said.


unsafe says ---this is interesting -----read all here

Law of the New Testament

The modern 747 jumbo jet airplane (featured above) is the largest of all passenger airliners; depending on the configuration, it can handle 416 - 524 passengers. The typical weight of a 747 at take-off is 400 to 435 tons, that is the equivalent weight of 320 full size American automobiles or 1,400 standard donkeys. How can anything that massive fly? What kind of physical laws must function in order to ensure the airworthiness of airplanes with that amount of physical mass?

Obviously, God’s physical laws preside over every tangible human activity. How far-reaching are the physical laws, which govern the entire perceptible universe? What about spiritual laws? Do they operate at the same level as the physical laws such as gravity? Let’s investigate.

It does not take a genius to realize that a modern 747 airliner somehow must supersede the laws that govern gravity!

 

[chansen]

It does not take a genius to realize that a modern 747 airliner somehow must supersede the laws that govern gravity!

That would only be if gravity did not apply to a 747 airliner. Airplanes effectively have 4 forces working on them: gravity down, lift up, thrust forward, and drag pulls them back. Wings only produce lift if thrust overcomes drag to create sufficient speed to overcome the stall speed of the aircraft. When lift overcomes gravity, it's not gravity ceasing to be a force, or a law. If thrust is decreased and speed drops below the stall speed of the wings, the 747 is a large mass of aluminum dropping from the sky.

This is not my anti-theistic side coming out - it's my interest in aircraft that won't let you get away with passing off junk science because you think lying about this stuff helps your cause.