Is humanity morally flawed.

[Pavlos Maros]

Hmm... pretty sure I answered that one Mendalla. I believe that God has revealed to humanity (in the Bible) who God is.

But how do you know being a flawed moral broken human being. How would you know satan isn't actually the good one and gods wants you to believe it is him. How can you make a judgement when you yourself are flawed.

 

[GeoFee]

Hi,

Do you believe that god is the ultimate morality and we are not. Yes/no?

First let me notice cause and effect. This is in play from the atomic to the cosmic manifestation of being. Being itself standing beyond the threshold of human perception and definition. It animates us each and all. If you are interested in digging deeper, I will recommend Martin Heidegger's "Being and Time". A dense but profitable read.

God is no cosmic dictator concerning what is right and what is wrong. God is the author of our experience. We are the characters in a story being told. That story involves all manner of twists and turns as its characters negotiate their way through the plot and to its climax. As characters, we each have opportunity to decide for this or that as they present themselves along the way of our experience in creation.

God, who is being itself expressed metaphorically, is the animating centre of human being in creation. My take on this deriving from the name of God given in the experience of Moses, a principle character in our human story. That name being "I am who I am becoming". This being the name authorizing Jesus, another principle character in our story.

The above is metaphoric and not literal. It will not serve us well to reduce the sublimity of God, being itself, to concrete assertions of facticity.

I realize this is not a yes or no answer. Questions of ultimate concern are not well served by resort to simple dichotomies.

Is humanity morally flawed. Yes/no?

Have you any experience with history? Seems quite clear that we are off the rails in some pretty significant ways.

George

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Humanity could, and some have, decide that the final authority on morality is God whereas humanity (corporately and individually) have a responsibility to embody as much of God's moral code as is possible.

Justice is one such concept. God's standard can be difficult to match. Humanity can enact intermediate steps which ultimately fall short of God's standard yet progress morality forward.

In scripture we see eye for an eye which is not humanity's starting point do much as it represents a step forward. The end point, apparently is that we not return evil for evil and we turn the other cheek instead.

We generally allow the state to function as arbiter in legal cases. The same decision could also extend to morality.

The question still lies begging how can we humans decide who is the final authority when we cant understand moral perfection.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

Hi,
First let me notice cause and effect. This is in play from the atomic to the cosmic manifestation of being. Being itself standing beyond the threshold of human perception and definition. It animates us each and all. If you are interested in digging deeper, I will recommend Martin Heidegger's "Being and Time". A dense but profitable read.

God is no cosmic dictator concerning what is right and what is wrong. God is the author of our experience. We are the characters in a story being told. That story involves all manner of twists and turns as its characters negotiate their way through the plot and to its climax. As characters, we each have opportunity to decide for this or that as they present themselves along the way of our experience in creation.

God, who is being itself expressed metaphorically, is the animating centre of human being in creation. My take on this deriving from the name of God given in the experience of Moses, a principle character in our human story. That name being "I am who I am becoming". This being the name authorizing Jesus, another principle character in our story.

The above is metaphoric and not literal. It will not serve us well to reduce the sublimity of God, being itself, to concrete assertions of facticity.

I realize this is not a yes or no answer. Questions of ultimate concern are not well served by resort to simple dichotomies.
Have you any experience with history? Seems quite clear that we are off the rails in some pretty significant ways.

George

It is a yes or no answer George, because the second is defined by the first question. so if it is a yes for the second question it must by default be a yes for the first.

 

[GeoFee]

It is a yes or no answer George, because the second is defined by the first question. so if it is a yes for the second question it must by default be a yes for the first.

I see. You asked questions for which you already knew the answers? Why?

 

[GeoFee]

Hi,

how could humanity decide who is the final arbiter, or who is not.

Interesting connection with Genesis. God’s word, being itself, shaped creation and creature. Humanity is presented as spirit animated (breath) material being (clay). All creation is available to bring challenge and benefit. Challenge being necessary to human development. Benefit following the successful negotiation of that challenge.

One thing only is prohibited, that humans take themselves to be arbiters of what is good and what is bad. This leading to polarization, conflict (Cain/Abel) and death.

George

 

[Luce NDs]

Humanity could, and some have, decide that the final authority on morality is God whereas humanity (corporately and individually) have a responsibility to embody as much of God's moral code as is possible.

Justice is one such concept. God's standard can be difficult to match. Humanity can enact intermediate steps which ultimately fall short of God's standard yet progress morality forward.

In scripture we see eye for an eye which is not humanity's starting point do much as it represents a step forward. The end point, apparently is that we not return evil for evil and we turn the other cheek instead.

We generally allow the state to function as arbiter in legal cases. The same decision could also extend to morality.

Humanity has to get beyond its subjective self ... ultimate chore ... a Job seen at distance according to definitions of ultimate! Leads to far side tunes ... a terrible hump to get across!

 

[Waterfall]

Do you believe that god is the ultimate morality and we are not. Yes/no?


Is humanity morally flawed. Yes/no?

Judging from some of the stories about God in the Bible, I would say no, he is not the ultimate morality. What I would say is that God is the ultimate creator that requires no good or evil to shape us into existence.

Yes we are flawed because mere existence isn't enough for us.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

I see. You asked questions for which you already knew the answers? Why?

I don't know the answer, it is a quandary. How does a believer get to the answer that god is the final moral authority. if they haven't got the skills to define what a final moral authority looks like. If you cant obtain perfection how do you know what perfection looks like, and how do you know whether one superior creature is better than another.

 

[GeoFee]

Quandary offers opportunity for growth.

The empiricists of about five hundred years past questioned the matter of God as moral authority. Bacon, for instance, assumed no transcendent moral authority. We were free do do as we wished. Lip service might be given to God but without moral obligation of any kind. Our destiny was of our own making.

Casting off the moral constraints of God opened the way to liberal ideology. Each person at liberty to pursue the advance of pleasure and retardation of pain. This requiring subordination only to the sovereign, according to Hobbes, who was necesssry to the maintainence of order. That sovereign being one of us successful in the restless seeking of power after power.

Suspect I am digressing.

 

[Jae]

But that doesn't really answer the question. Just because God reveals Godself as the source of morality doesn't mean we have the capacity to "get" the message. That's the question, not how God is revealed but how we, as broken people, are able to take it in.

A somewhat analogous thought: I am terrible with math. Not innumerate by any means, but my eyes glaze over when presented with anything more advanced than the quadratic formula. Little M and Mrs. M sometimes have conversations that make my head spin these days now that he's learned advanced calculus and such.

If humans are like that with morality, how could we recognize God as moral? Why wouldn't it just go over our heads?

In essence, does there not have to be some nucleus of good, of moral understanding there, however deep inside, for us to even recognize God's moral perfection? Deprave but not totally, if you like.

I believe that humanity, outside Christ, is totally corrupt in all spiritual matters. I further believe that God gives, through his word and sacrament, faith to people to believe thst he is who he has revealed himself to be.

 

[Jae]

But how do you know being a flawed moral broken human being. How would you know satan isn't actually the good one and gods wants you to believe it is him. How can you make a judgement when you yourself are flawed.

I trust that God has given myself and others faith that he is who he has revealed himself to be.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

If you cant obtain perfection how do you know what perfection looks like, and how do you know whether one superior creature is better than another.

Perhaps it's because we have all encountered the antithesis - imperfection - that, in itself, awakens some understanding of what is lacking in ourselves? The name we have for that which we lack is called perfection.

I also suspect God (perhaps a metaphor or concept, rather than a "deity") isn't interested in perfection, preferring to focus on unconditional love.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

But how do you know being a flawed moral broken human being. How would you know satan isn't actually the good one and gods wants you to believe it is him. How can you make a judgement when you yourself are flawed.

I trust that God has given myself and others faith that he is who he has revealed himself to be.

Sorry Jae that doesn't answer the question, it just says what you believe. the honest answer would be "I couldn't know"

 

[Jae]

Sorry Jae that doesn't answer the question, it just says what you believe. the honest answer would be "I couldn't know"

In your OP you asked us for what we believe. In response, I provided you with what I believe.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

If you cant obtain perfection how do you know what perfection looks like, and how do you know whether one superior creature is better than another.

Perhaps it's because we have all encountered the antithesis - imperfection - that, in itself, awakens some understanding of what is lacking in ourselves? The name we have for that which we lack is called perfection.

I think you have misunderstood the question. If you don't know what moral perfection is because you could never reach moral perfection. how can you see it when it's there. You could only ever know what is worse than you.

 

[Jae]

I think you have misunderstood the question. If you don't know what moral perfection is because you could never reach moral perfection. how can you see it when it's there. You could only ever know what is worse than you.

I believe thst God has given me faith in his being the ultimate, Sovereign judge. This faith is not of myself but is rather a gift from God.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

In your OP you asked us for what we believe. In response, I provided you with what I believe.

No I asked you for two answers on a specific belief, not all your beliefs. What you think other than the original questions is beside the point. If say god is morally perfect and you could never be, how can you know what is morally perfect Mendalla already explained it to you. twice I believe.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

I believe thst God has given me faith in his being the ultimate, Sovereign judge. This faith is not of myself but is rather a gift from God.

Yes I gathered that. But you cant know that god is morally perfect. You could have chosen badly. That is the point. But your happy the way you are. the honest answer is always I don't know or I couldn't know

 

[Jae]

Yes I gathered that. But you cant know that god is morally perfect. You could have chosen badly. That is the point. But your happy the way you are. the honest answer is always I don't know or I couldn't know

I didn't choose.