"Swastika: Symbol Beyond Redemption?"

[Northwind]

I can see a whirling log in it @Northwind. Would it be safe to assume that you a Navajo artist sympathizer?

I would definitely prefer that. I saw it as a Celtic symbol of some sort.

This is what I ended up doing.

 

[WhyCzar]

@Waterfall "I'm curious why the Nazis chose this symbol in the first place"

Further to @Mendalla 's answer a bit more detail.

“The antiquities unearthed by Dr. Schliemann at Troy acquire for us a double interest,” wrote British linguist Archibald Sayce in 1896. “They carry us back to the later stone ages of the Aryan race.”

Initially, “Aryan” was a term used to delineate the Indo-European language group, not a racial classification. Scholars in the burgeoning field of linguistics had noticed similarities among the German, Romance and Sanskrit languages. The rising interest in eugenics and racial hygiene, however, led some to corrupt Aryan into a descriptor for an ancient, master racial identity with a clear throughline to contemporary Germany.

“When Heinrich Schliemann discovered swastika-like decorations on pottery fragments in all archaeological levels at Troy, it was seen as evidence for a racial continuity and proof that the inhabitants of the site had been Aryan all along,” writes anthropologist Gwendolyn Leick. “The link between the swastika and Indo-European origin, once forged was impossible to discard. It allowed the projection of nationalist feelings and associations onto a universal symbol, which hence served as a distinguishing boundary marker between non-Aryan, or rather non-German, and German identity.”

As the swastika became more and more intertwined with German nationalism, Adolf Hitler’s influence grew—and he adopted the hooked cross as the Nazi party symbol in 1920. “

To further enshrine the swastika as a symbol of Nazi power, Joseph Goebbels (Hitler’s minister of propaganda) issued a decree on May 19, 1933 that prevented unauthorized commercial use of the hooked cross. The symbol also featured prominently Leni Riefenstahl’s propagandist film Triumph of the Will, writes historian Malcolm Quinn. “When Hitler is absent… his place is taken by the swastika, which, like the image of the Führer, becomes a switching station for personal and national identities.”

Efforts to ban the display of the swastika and other Nazi iconography in the post-war years—including current German criminal laws that prohibit the public use of the swastika and the Nazi salute—seem to have only further enshrined the evil regime it was co-opted by.

It seems the harder authority figures attempt to quash it out, the greater its power to intimidate.

“Either you try to extinguish it, and if that’s the case you’ve got to brainwash an awful lot of people, or you let it continue, and it will brainwash a lot of people."

The Man Who Brought the Swastika to Germany, and How the Nazis Stole It

Even after decades, the symbol can’t shake free from its evil associations

www.smithsonianmag.com

 

[jimkenney12]

I was impressed by the decision of those chiefs to declare the symbol as desecrated and to ban it.

 

[WhyCzar]

@jimkenney12
A Cross Desecration Libel?

Abstract: Medieval European Jews often reacted violently to the cross or crucifix, seeing it as an idolatrous "abomination." Jews encountered the cross in various material forms, whether displayed in the church, or used in procession, or depicted on the clothing of crusaders and religious officials. It was not only a religious symbol, however: it was also a symbol of Christian power, and its virtual omnipresence in medieval Europe would have been a constant reminder of the Jews' political weakness. At times, the Jews' political impotence and violence against them may have provoked real attacks on the cross. The danger that such attacks would predictably result in martyrdom has led some scholars to question whether Christian accounts of such attacks on the cross are reliable, or whether they constitute a "cross desecration libel" fabricated about the same time as the blood libel in medieval Europe. This paper surveys both Latin and Hebrew sources treating medieval Jewish responses to the cross and argues that following the First Crusade, Jewish views of martyrdom may have encouraged abuse of the cross as a defiant sign of Jewish identity. It concludes that accounts of Jews' abusing the cross were not merely Christian fabrications or literary inventions, but likely point to actual behavior.

Context is KEY.

Mark Pitcavage the ADL’s hate symbols database.

“The Nazis have such brand name power that they are going to be dominating white supremacist symbology for a century to come,” he says.

But there is risk in this hyper-visibility. A large neo-Nazi group called the National Socialist Movement announced it would be shedding depictions of the swastika in what their leader told The New York Times was “an attempt to become more integrated and more mainstream.”

As a replacement, the NSM chose the Othala Rune, an pre-Roman symbol co-opted by Nazi Germany.

The rune, an innocent symbol outside of its appropriation by white supremacists, is related to ideas of “homeland” and “inheritance.” It is also rooted in Germanic and pagan Viking cultures.

While Othala runes are on their way in, other time-tested symbols are on their way out.

The iron cross used to be a widely-used hate symbol that harkened back to the Nazi era, but lost its potency in the ’90s and early 2000s when surf, skate and motorcycle companies started using similar-looking images in their branding.

People who employ hate symbols typically want their ideologies known, but not so much that they’ll be criticized or shunned. It presents an interesting creative challenge.

When people have a hate symbol they tend to want to want to use them in one of three ways and they are not mutually exclusive.

• 1. They want to openly proclaim their affiliation to the cause
• 2. They want to use the symbols to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies, or as an agent of intimidation.
• 3. They may use them internally, as codes and images that will have significance only to each others.

 

[Mendalla]

As a replacement, the NSM chose the Othala Rune, an pre-Roman symbol co-opted by Nazi Germany.

The rune, an innocent symbol outside of its appropriation by white supremacists, is related to ideas of “homeland” and “inheritance.” It is also rooted in Germanic and pagan Viking cultures.

Followers of Norse and German paganism who are not inclined to fascism (i.e. most of them) are already pissed at neo-Nazis for appropriating their imagery. This won't help.

 

[Luce NDs]

Can you conjure up how these icons could be Rae-arranged: ┌ ┐└ ┘ ... in viscous traditions of thick sapient matter ... like r and ﬢ, ﬥ, ﬧ, דּ's in differing vectors ... directions of the 4 winds? It has this Eire tuit ... in phono hymns ... when calmed ... nothing to it ... just thin air ... the air hook ... ﮅ that's the Arab dahal ... and there th' myth hangs ... like Freud's vapors ... Shenandoah's mists ... thus writ! The history is indeed clouded ... iconic ... some say se*man*t-ix!

Like scat ... know your signs ... before you get too deep in ide ... Eire it is ... reflected upon! Four shades to the wind ... spoken of in Number's II! Deuce 've an order ... inebriation of a story? Intoxicants ... can put you to sleep ... yea never heard the end of it! Just Yah-yah's??? That's Ire ...

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

It’s a red flag. With fascism on the rise, I feel that perhaps this is a very wrong time for influencers to be suggesting that the mainstream contemplate such a change in attitude toward a well known hate symbol - and we need to be cautious of the timing of these ideas. Like, maybe someone wants it be used to suggest “I’m not antisemetic, it’s only a symbol and the Nazis didn’t invent it blah blah” in the same way that they can spin other words and symbols to suggest that something isn’t racist or bigoted in some other way. It’s been happening more and more in the right wing “marketplace of ideas” in the last few years. They’re tricky. These things create confusion and conflict. On purpose. By racists and antisemites. Then they blame the “sjw’s” or those who have good reason to fear the hate, for being too sensitive, and they push for hate symbols and language to be seen as ok so hate goes unnoticed by the mainstream. That’s not ok.

The timing is especially bad, imo. We can’t just be having intellectual discussions about these things as if fascism isn’t going on everywhere and antisemitism is not an active concern - because that’s not the case in the world we live in right now.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I would definitely prefer that. I saw it as a Celtic symbol of some sort.

This is what I ended up doing.

View attachment 9290

I had a carved lapis pendant back in the late 90’s early 2000s that I thought looked Celtic - similar to the above design. I bought it from an artisan vendor’s table somewhere. My friend’s Eastern European mom asked me if I knew what it meant. I said “no I just like it” the colors of the stone were pretty - not thinking much of the question. She didn’t say anything. Obviously she felt my ignorance made it harmless at the time, or for some reason it didn’t bother her enough to educate me. I wish she had - I would’ve not worn it. I don’t know if I offended anybody. I really hope not. Looking back, I think maybe she recognized it as a swastika and I was ignorant. I’ve thought of that necklace and conversation, before this discussion - and I cringe at myself. I thought it was just an abstract design - like I said, kind of Celtic. But I’ve since seen others pointed out, that were abstract, but intentionally so. It definitely didn’t look like a typical swastika of the well known hate symbol variety or I never would’ve bought it. I don’t have it anymore and I’m embarrassed, ashamed, that I wore it - thinking of her question. Innocent mistake, I promise, but still, I cringe. It was either an abstract Celtic, or some other tribal design - or it wasn’t. I wish I’d picked something else unmistakeable and definitely harmless!

(By the way I’m only saying this because it reminded me of my mistake.)

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I have Celtic ancestors so if it was Celtic, maybe that’s ok. I’m just not sure. …yet, today I don’t think I’d be in any rush to display something that says “I have Celtic ancestors”. I’m just not into doing that - it feels in bad taste today, if not white supremacisty, to me, anyway. That’s not a fact, it’s just how I feel. I’d like to keep my symbols neutral and artistically but not tribally meaningful.

(Looks at claddagh ring on finger, like a hypocrite - and rethinks wearing it even though I’ve had it for 30 yrs)

 

[Northwind]

The timing is especially bad, imo. We can’t just be having intellectual discussions about these things as if fascism isn’t going on everywhere and antisemitism is not an active concern - because that’s not the case in the world we live in right now.

This is a really good point. Jewish students are feeling unsafe on some campuses. There's more fascism and racism and antisemitism, etc. This isn't the time. Other discussion needs to happen first.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

This is a really good point. Jewish students are feeling unsafe on some campuses. There's more fascism and racism and antisemitism, etc. This isn't the time. Other discussion needs to happen first.

Yes. I think so too. But then I went and explained a mistake I may have made with a necklace many years ago and opened up that discussion some more. This is how they get people! They get us going “Oh well, maybe if looked at differently it’s not so bad.” But it is. The world is in conflict and people are being harmed and dying. Today it’s acutely problematic. There’s a lot of “I say racist (or other bigoted) things but that doesn’t make me one” going around, purposely - taunting the bigotry to continue in a particularly fraught time. I don’t want to be part of the problem or make excuses for it. People should instead be encouraged to be more thoughtful and looking out for bigoted spin.

It’s one of the most well known hate symbols. To advocate to make blatantly displaying it okay could then make any hate toward any vulnerable groups seem okay. That’s not okay. It erases reality for so many.

 

[Northwind]

There was a great upheaval about the knit design. The designer was understandably horrified that people saw that symbol in his design. The related message board was a mess. Some didn't see the symbol or the reason for concern. Some did, and were genuinely upset. Others were virtue signalling. The designer originally said we could modify the design by changing up the colours or something. My plan was to modify mine. After close to a week he put his foot down and said he didn't want anyone knitting the design or a modified design. Any such knits would not be considered his design.

It was stressful. I liked the pattern. In the end I decided to respect his wishes and do something completely different. I'm glad I did. I wouldn't want anyone to see a swastika in anything I knit.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Hate symbols aren’t ok, toward any marginalized groups… what I’m trying to say is - erasing that one (saying it isn’t) makes other hate toward other marginalized or vulnerable people just as likely to be accepted. It’s an antisemitic symbol - but the Nazis went after everyone who wasn’t one of them and there’s a fascist movement toward that again today.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

There was a great upheaval about the knit design. The designer was understandably horrified that people saw that symbol in his design. The related message board was a mess. Some didn't see the symbol or the reason for concern. Some did, and were genuinely upset. Others were virtue signalling. The designer originally said we could modify the design by changing up the colours or something. My plan was to modify mine. After close to a week he put his foot down and said he didn't want anyone knitting the design or a modified design. Any such knits would not be considered his design.

It was stressful. I liked the pattern. In the end I decided to respect his wishes and do something completely different. I'm glad I did. I wouldn't want anyone to see a swastika in anything I knit.

I understand you weren’t doing anything wrong on purpose and why you, or he, may have missed the possible symbolism. It’s abstract and colourful. But I agree it was best to scrap it for the sake of those offended (for good reason).

 

[Northwind]

I understand you weren’t doing anything wrong on purpose and why you, or he, may have missed the possible symbolism. It’s abstract and colourful. But I agree it was best to scrap it for the sake of those offended (for good reason).

I just wish he had handled it better. I do understand that he was upset and that this was a horrible situation for him to be better. He could have put the knit along on hold for a week or few days so that he could figure out how to respond.

 

[Luce NDs]

What does it take for the greatest of powers to be offended?

It may be humbling ...thus you cannot expect the rich to respect the lesser ... the result is a split decision ... silently we leave the encounter with rye truth ... naked as a Jay Boid ...

It may explain the rainbow and why the red shift has a counterpoint off in the blue spectrum ... you cannot understand unless a bit over it ... as spirit over the rainbow? The flags are being removed in some NB towns under the premise we cannot afford to respect marginal groups ... it makes demands on the wealthier! We just cannot have say those that do ... thus controversy and chaos ... because of what we got!

Hoo's caused this; woe, or hoe min oid? We plough on ...

 

[BetteTheRed]

I find it a bit "colonizer" that one of "our" group could co-opt a symbol of good in both indigenous and ancient (Indian) cultures, and we go along with that co-opting.