Is humanity morally flawed.

Pavlos Maros

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Do you believe that god is the ultimate morality and we are not. Yes/no?

Is humanity morally flawed. Yes/no?



 

Luce NDs

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Yes ... that is all there is ... is it naught? A great part of it is void ... a challenge to fill given out preposterous urge to destroy ... except for thoughts which escape easily ... thus out there! Nothing intuit yet ... but I Come is the song ... we must follow ... allows latency!

But don't get yah asses too far up ... thus stuck up ... ET IHX ...
 

Mendalla

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For the first question, no. But I also don't believe in a traditional god so it's kind of an irrelevant question for me.

As for the second question, define "morally flawed".

If it means we are all a bunch of psychotic, twisted perverts, no.

If it means we sometimes act selfishly or make choices for the wrong reasons, then sure. I don't think anyone goes through life without making a bad or selfish decision at some point, but I'm not sure that amounts to "morally flawed". Most people I know have it right at heart, know the importance of living in right relationship with other people and the world we live in, but just give in to desires or decisions that are destructive to those relationships from time to time.

IOW, our morality as a species is more nuanced than a simple yes/no question can get to.
 

Luce NDs

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We do appear to be fractured ... perhaps an illusion determined from perspectives of gross valance?

Liberty to do that is yet out there ... under the rules of avarice about who controls what! Powers will destroy everything all about them for corruptive power ... thus cyclic recession and backing off ... backsliding? --- Sisifus!

If attempting to control the world ... are there pit falls? Some fade out as fates to do spinning spoor and snippage ... old BID ahs! They keep laying odds ...
 

Jae

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Do you believe that god is the ultimate morality and we are not. Yes/no?

Is humanity morally flawed. Yes/no?
I believe that God is the ultimate, Sovereign judge over what is and isn't moral. I believe that humanity is broken but that wholeness can be found in Jesus Christ.
 

Luce NDs

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De luminous bounces on the water in de Moe 'n lighting ...

Driven to aspirations by those that would command you not to know ... thus we don't so as to be blissive for a bit ... cookie chitz? Crumb ease!
 

Mendalla

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@Jae, is "broken" the same as "morally flawed" in your view, or are they different in some way?
 

revjohn

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Pavlos Maros said:
Do you believe that god is the ultimate morality and we are not. Yes/no?


I believe God is the final arbiter with respect to righteousness and sinfulness. I'm not sure either are inherently ethical choices.

Pavlos Maros said:
Is humanity morally flawed. Yes/no?


I believe humanity is fundamentally corrupted. This ultimately produces flawed ethicality or flawed adherence to an ethical standard.
 

Pavlos Maros

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For the first question, no. But I also don't believe in a traditional god so it's kind of an irrelevant question for me.
Good answer.

As for the second question, define "morally flawed".

If it means we are all a bunch of psychotic, twisted perverts, no.
No I mean not moral to the standard of god.

If it means we sometimes act selfishly or make choices for the wrong reasons, then sure. I don't think anyone goes through life without making a bad or selfish decision at some point, but I'm not sure that amounts to "morally flawed". Most people I know have it right at heart, know the importance of living in right relationship with other people and the world we live in, but just give in to desires or decisions that are destructive to those relationships from time to time.
It is all defined by the first question..

And I agree that morality is relative. But as said, it is defined by the first question. I.E. If people believe god is the ultimate morality. Then by default man must be lacking in morality. So it is a yes/no answer.
 

Pavlos Maros

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I believe that God is the ultimate, Sovereign judge over what is and isn't moral. I believe that humanity is broken but that wholeness can be found in Jesus Christ.
If humanity's standard of morality is flawed/broken how could we/you decide who is moral, and who is not.
 

Pavlos Maros

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I believe God is the final arbiter with respect to righteousness and sinfulness. I'm not sure either are inherently ethical choices.


I believe humanity is fundamentally corrupted. This ultimately produces flawed ethicality or flawed adherence to an ethical standard.
If humanity's standard is fundamentally corrupted how could humanity decide who is the final arbiter, or who is not.
 

Mendalla

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If humanity's standard of morality is flawed/broken how could we/you decide who is moral, and who is not.
You couldn't. Only God could do that. It's too bad not all Christians have the humility to recognize that and insist on judging others, but that's the logical implication of Original Sin, Total Depravity, and similar doctrines: We can't judge others' brokenness when we ourselves are broken.

how could humanity decide who is the final arbiter
This part of your question is the more difficult philosophical question and it's not one I have an answer for, given that I am a pantheist who doesn't hold God to be the ultimate moral standard.
 

Mendalla

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You couldn't. Only God could do that. It's too bad not all Christians have the humility to recognize that and insist on judging others, but that's the logical implication of Original Sin, Total Depravity, and similar doctrines: We can't judge others' brokenness when we ourselves are broken.
Addendum: Jesus pretty much taught as much with the whole "let the one who is without sin throw the first stone" line.
 

Luce NDs

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If humanity's standard is fundamentally corrupted how could humanity decide who is the final arbiter, or who is not.
Without soul ... could we be cognizant of anything or nothing?

I've been told that soul is non-existent ... in essence only! Would this too, exist beyond a busted organism of contemplation? Some blast ephemy required for broad-based expansion ... inky blotting?
 

Jae

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If humanity's standard of morality is flawed/broken how could we/you decide who is moral, and who is not.
I believe that God has revealed himself to be the ultimate, Sovereign judge of what is moral and what is not. I get that that isn't the way you see things, but you asked us for what we believe.
 

Mendalla

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I believe that God has revealed himself to be the ultimate, Sovereign judge of what is moral and what is not. I get that that isn't the way you see things, but you asked us for what we believe.
What he is really asking is how do we know God is moral if we ourselves are morally flawed? How can fundamental imperfection even recognize fundamental perfection?
 

Jae

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@Jae, is "broken" the same as "morally flawed" in your view, or are they different in some way?
Thank you for the question Mendalla. I believe that brokenness includes moral flaw, but there is more to it as well. Brokenness also includes physical death, and the concept that, on their own, humans are unable to rise above the broken condition into which they are born.
 

Jae

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What he is really asking is how do we know God is moral if we ourselves are morally flawed? How can fundamental imperfection even recognize fundamental perfection?
Hmm... pretty sure I answered that one Mendalla. I believe that God has revealed to humanity (in the Bible) who God is.
 

Mendalla

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Hmm... pretty sure I answered that one Mendalla. I believe that God has revealed to humanity (in the Bible) who God is.
But that doesn't really answer the question. Just because God reveals Godself as the source of morality doesn't mean we have the capacity to "get" the message. That's the question, not how God is revealed but how we, as broken people, are able to take it in.

A somewhat analogous thought: I am terrible with math. Not innumerate by any means, but my eyes glaze over when presented with anything more advanced than the quadratic formula. Little M and Mrs. M sometimes have conversations that make my head spin these days now that he's learned advanced calculus and such.

If humans are like that with morality, how could we recognize God as moral? Why wouldn't it just go over our heads?

In essence, does there not have to be some nucleus of good, of moral understanding there, however deep inside, for us to even recognize God's moral perfection? Deprave but not totally, if you like.
 

revjohn

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Pavlos Maros said:
If humanity's standard is fundamentally corrupted how could humanity decide who is the final arbiter, or who is not.
Humanity could, and some have, decide that the final authority on morality is God whereas humanity (corporately and individually) have a responsibility to embody as much of God's moral code as is possible.

Justice is one such concept. God's standard can be difficult to match. Humanity can enact intermediate steps which ultimately fall short of God's standard yet progress morality forward.

In scripture we see eye for an eye which is not humanity's starting point do much as it represents a step forward. The end point, apparently is that we not return evil for evil and we turn the other cheek instead.

We generally allow the state to function as arbiter in legal cases. The same decision could also extend to morality.
 
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