1. Welcome to Wondercafe2! You are here and we are glad. Enjoy your time. Please visit the Tips & Techniques forum, especially the thread Basic Posting & Forum Info, to learn more about how to use the site.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Wondercafe2 is now using HTTPS. Please start using this instead of HTTP. How-to: Secure Site Update
    Dismiss Notice

Is humanity morally flawed.

Discussion in 'Religion and Faith' started by Pavlos Maros, Dec 1, 2018.

  1. Pavlos Maros

    Pavlos Maros Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,298
    Likes Received:
    372
    Do you believe that god is the ultimate morality and we are not. Yes/no?

    Is humanity morally flawed. Yes/no?



     
  2. Luce NDs

    Luce NDs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    35,978
    Likes Received:
    3,444
    Yes ... that is all there is ... is it naught? A great part of it is void ... a challenge to fill given out preposterous urge to destroy ... except for thoughts which escape easily ... thus out there! Nothing intuit yet ... but I Come is the song ... we must follow ... allows latency!

    But don't get yah asses too far up ... thus stuck up ... ET IHX ...
     
    Pavlos Maros likes this.
  3. Mendalla

    Mendalla A Node in the Interdependent Web

    Messages:
    22,110
    Likes Received:
    13,333
    For the first question, no. But I also don't believe in a traditional god so it's kind of an irrelevant question for me.

    As for the second question, define "morally flawed".

    If it means we are all a bunch of psychotic, twisted perverts, no.

    If it means we sometimes act selfishly or make choices for the wrong reasons, then sure. I don't think anyone goes through life without making a bad or selfish decision at some point, but I'm not sure that amounts to "morally flawed". Most people I know have it right at heart, know the importance of living in right relationship with other people and the world we live in, but just give in to desires or decisions that are destructive to those relationships from time to time.

    IOW, our morality as a species is more nuanced than a simple yes/no question can get to.
     
    Seeler, chansen, GiancarloZ and 2 others like this.
  4. Luce NDs

    Luce NDs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    35,978
    Likes Received:
    3,444
    We do appear to be fractured ... perhaps an illusion determined from perspectives of gross valance?

    Liberty to do that is yet out there ... under the rules of avarice about who controls what! Powers will destroy everything all about them for corruptive power ... thus cyclic recession and backing off ... backsliding? --- Sisifus!

    If attempting to control the world ... are there pit falls? Some fade out as fates to do spinning spoor and snippage ... old BID ahs! They keep laying odds ...
     
  5. Jae

    Jae Seolon-ui Tolon Ton

    Messages:
    28,686
    Likes Received:
    3,548
    I believe that God is the ultimate, Sovereign judge over what is and isn't moral. I believe that humanity is broken but that wholeness can be found in Jesus Christ.
     
  6. Luce NDs

    Luce NDs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    35,978
    Likes Received:
    3,444
    De luminous bounces on the water in de Moe 'n lighting ...

    Driven to aspirations by those that would command you not to know ... thus we don't so as to be blissive for a bit ... cookie chitz? Crumb ease!
     
  7. Mendalla

    Mendalla A Node in the Interdependent Web

    Messages:
    22,110
    Likes Received:
    13,333
    @Jae, is "broken" the same as "morally flawed" in your view, or are they different in some way?
     
  8. revjohn

    revjohn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,802
    Likes Received:
    5,456


    I believe God is the final arbiter with respect to righteousness and sinfulness. I'm not sure either are inherently ethical choices.



    I believe humanity is fundamentally corrupted. This ultimately produces flawed ethicality or flawed adherence to an ethical standard.
     
    blackbelt1961 and GiancarloZ like this.
  9. Pavlos Maros

    Pavlos Maros Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,298
    Likes Received:
    372
    Good answer.

    No I mean not moral to the standard of god.

    It is all defined by the first question..

    And I agree that morality is relative. But as said, it is defined by the first question. I.E. If people believe god is the ultimate morality. Then by default man must be lacking in morality. So it is a yes/no answer.
     
  10. Pavlos Maros

    Pavlos Maros Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,298
    Likes Received:
    372
    If humanity's standard of morality is flawed/broken how could we/you decide who is moral, and who is not.
     
  11. Pavlos Maros

    Pavlos Maros Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,298
    Likes Received:
    372
    If humanity's standard is fundamentally corrupted how could humanity decide who is the final arbiter, or who is not.
     
    Luce NDs likes this.
  12. Mendalla

    Mendalla A Node in the Interdependent Web

    Messages:
    22,110
    Likes Received:
    13,333
    You couldn't. Only God could do that. It's too bad not all Christians have the humility to recognize that and insist on judging others, but that's the logical implication of Original Sin, Total Depravity, and similar doctrines: We can't judge others' brokenness when we ourselves are broken.

    This part of your question is the more difficult philosophical question and it's not one I have an answer for, given that I am a pantheist who doesn't hold God to be the ultimate moral standard.
     
  13. Mendalla

    Mendalla A Node in the Interdependent Web

    Messages:
    22,110
    Likes Received:
    13,333
    Addendum: Jesus pretty much taught as much with the whole "let the one who is without sin throw the first stone" line.
     
    GiancarloZ likes this.
  14. Luce NDs

    Luce NDs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    35,978
    Likes Received:
    3,444
    Without soul ... could we be cognizant of anything or nothing?

    I've been told that soul is non-existent ... in essence only! Would this too, exist beyond a busted organism of contemplation? Some blast ephemy required for broad-based expansion ... inky blotting?
     
  15. Jae

    Jae Seolon-ui Tolon Ton

    Messages:
    28,686
    Likes Received:
    3,548
    I believe that God has revealed himself to be the ultimate, Sovereign judge of what is moral and what is not. I get that that isn't the way you see things, but you asked us for what we believe.
     
  16. Mendalla

    Mendalla A Node in the Interdependent Web

    Messages:
    22,110
    Likes Received:
    13,333
    What he is really asking is how do we know God is moral if we ourselves are morally flawed? How can fundamental imperfection even recognize fundamental perfection?
     
    Pavlos Maros likes this.
  17. Jae

    Jae Seolon-ui Tolon Ton

    Messages:
    28,686
    Likes Received:
    3,548
    Thank you for the question Mendalla. I believe that brokenness includes moral flaw, but there is more to it as well. Brokenness also includes physical death, and the concept that, on their own, humans are unable to rise above the broken condition into which they are born.
     
  18. Jae

    Jae Seolon-ui Tolon Ton

    Messages:
    28,686
    Likes Received:
    3,548
    Hmm... pretty sure I answered that one Mendalla. I believe that God has revealed to humanity (in the Bible) who God is.
     
  19. Mendalla

    Mendalla A Node in the Interdependent Web

    Messages:
    22,110
    Likes Received:
    13,333
    But that doesn't really answer the question. Just because God reveals Godself as the source of morality doesn't mean we have the capacity to "get" the message. That's the question, not how God is revealed but how we, as broken people, are able to take it in.

    A somewhat analogous thought: I am terrible with math. Not innumerate by any means, but my eyes glaze over when presented with anything more advanced than the quadratic formula. Little M and Mrs. M sometimes have conversations that make my head spin these days now that he's learned advanced calculus and such.

    If humans are like that with morality, how could we recognize God as moral? Why wouldn't it just go over our heads?

    In essence, does there not have to be some nucleus of good, of moral understanding there, however deep inside, for us to even recognize God's moral perfection? Deprave but not totally, if you like.
     
    dreamerman and Pavlos Maros like this.
  20. revjohn

    revjohn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,802
    Likes Received:
    5,456
    Humanity could, and some have, decide that the final authority on morality is God whereas humanity (corporately and individually) have a responsibility to embody as much of God's moral code as is possible.

    Justice is one such concept. God's standard can be difficult to match. Humanity can enact intermediate steps which ultimately fall short of God's standard yet progress morality forward.

    In scripture we see eye for an eye which is not humanity's starting point do much as it represents a step forward. The end point, apparently is that we not return evil for evil and we turn the other cheek instead.

    We generally allow the state to function as arbiter in legal cases. The same decision could also extend to morality.
     

Share This Page