The Rev. Vosper Again

[Luce NDs]

Is there anything abreast and in the middle? Medium is denied as it is associated with thinking people going against the volitions ... votively even!

 

[Delightful Life]

Firstly

Wahoo UCoC and GRETTA!!! May you continue 2 b fecund and imaginative :3
Hopefully those peeps who started this mess won't continue projecting their anxieties etc outside of themselves...

Of course. No one argues that members of Cruxifusion are more theologically orthodox than many in the United Church. But chansen's fixation on Cruxifusion as if it's plotting to take over the church and turn it into some fundamentalist paradise is absolute nonsense, akin to a conspiracy theory.

I don't think chansen has spent all of his Allowed Conspiracy Points...he still has room on his card...

Essentially, even the left wing has to have a right wing, lol...

*snaps finger equivalents*

The body addressed the two wings saying -"It is fair and just to have a left wing and right wing. Now you must beat co-operatively or we will all crash".

Now that is quotable!

No left turn, no right turn, whaddyado?
Inannawhimsey

 

[paradox3]

Back to the agreement with GV. Some folks at church today were wondering if the agreement might include a future retirement date for her. Speculation of course but none of us here were thinking that way.

 

[paradox3]

Rosie DiManno has checked in. Worth taking a look:

By swallowing its opposition to the minister who doesn’t believe in God, the United Church shows just how irrelevant it is | The Star

DiManno was present this a.m. for the service and celebration at West Hill (temporarily relocated).

Have been wondering if Doug Todd in the Vancouver Sun will comment.

 

[Delightful Life]

Rosie DiManno has checked in. Worth taking a look:

By swallowing its opposition to the minister who doesn’t believe in God, the United Church shows just how irrelevant it is | The Star

DiManno was present this a.m. for the service and celebration at West Hill (temporarily relocated).

Have been wondering if Doug Todd in the Vancouver Sun will comment.

Lol
What a stupid hit peice...I hope that reporter isn't important
*looks through articles*

Lol the world needs more reporters who don't lord themselves over anyone...just the facts and stop with the cynicism masquerading as thought...sheesh...high school is OVER lol

Opinion pieces w00t!

Wanderingly Present,
Inannawhimsey

 

[paradox3]

Lol
What a stupid hit peice...I hope that reporter isn't important
*looks through articles*

Lol the world needs more reporters who don't lord themselves over anyone...just the facts and stop with the cynicism masquerading as thought...sheesh...high school is OVER lol

Wanderingly Present,
Inannawhimsey

DiManno is not a reporter. She is a columnist with the freedom to express her opinions.

Sometimes I find DiManno maddening. This column strikes me as somewhat over the top but it is interesting to read an outsider's perspective on the GV decision.

Was also interested to learn that less than 100 people were present today with most of them in the white haired set.

 

[paradox3]

@Inannawhimsey You were editing as I was posting.

Yes, you are correct, it is an opinion piece.

We will get a more balanced piece if Doug Todd does one in the Vancouver Sun.

 

[Luce NDs]

Rosie DiManno has checked in. Worth taking a look:

By swallowing its opposition to the minister who doesn’t believe in God, the United Church shows just how irrelevant it is | The Star

DiManno was present this a.m. for the service and celebration at West Hill (temporarily relocated).

Have been wondering if Doug Todd in the Vancouver Sun will comment.

The Gods 've War Recede? Thus impressed if the freedom of the press is impacted badly ... thus it all goes down in time ... a critical incident when knowledge is released ... in X-Clam Asian ... Nipon Muscle? Cramp or Charlie as a pyretic Horse?

 

[Carolla]

Rosie's columns are often a bit on the extreme side of things - but that's okay with me - prompts discussion and thought, IMO. And she's also often pretty entertaining with her penchant for 'plain language'.

I too found it interesting to hear West Hill is out of its own building at the moment ... been there, done that!

 

[revjohn]

The denomination statement is damage control, plain and simple. It says, "Don't worry! We're still a Christian Church!" to all those who will be upset.

It is damage control and it is plain and simple.

It very plainly and simply stipulates that no matter the settlement neither Toronto Conference nor West Hill United Church nor the Reverend Gretta Vosper speak for or define the denomination.

The fact that nothing has been resolved one way or another not only upsets some. It confuses others.

I expect the settlement happened because somewhere along the way there was a procedural screw-up and not because there was any contrition by the Reverend Vosper or new understanding of her position.

The United Church of Canada has not affirmed her or her theological convictions. It affirms that Toronto Conference has the right to resolve the matter as it sees fit. At present the settlement is what Toronto Conference finds most fitting.

I don't expect they are altogether happy with the settlement.

 

[revjohn]

To my eyes it looks like the Denomination is attempting to distance itself from Toronto Conference.

Less distancing from the Conference and more distinguishing about the roles each play.

Toronto Conference is the court with oversight of the Reverend Vosper. They ultimately decide whether she is or isn't fit to serve as minister.

The settlement, at most, says that Toronto Conference will not challenge her fitness. We have no idea why at this late date that is the case.

If I were to speculate it would be a procedural screw-up which left Toronto Conference vulnerable to a wrongful dismissal suit. That in no way affirms the Reverend Vosper's fitness for ministry.

The response from The United Church of Canada acknowledges that Toronto Conference has the authority to opt for settlement and we knew that negotiations of some kind were taking place.

Incongruous, really, when you consider the hearing panel must have okayed the settlement between Gretta, WHUC & Conference.

This is a misunderstanding of the polity and process.

Toronto Conference asked the General Council to convene the panel. At the end of all testimony the panel would have offered recommendations to Toronto Conference. Toronto Conference would deliberate about whether or not to enact the recommendations.

The panel has a duty to examine. It does not have the authority to discipline.

It gave notice of the timeline for the review and the review had started its preliminaries.

Toronto Conference in settling no longer needs recommendations to deliberate about. Nothing changes save for the review not happening under Toronto Conference's watch.

Which will no doubt lead to speculation about whether or not the Office of Vocation will make this an important item to deal with.

Time will tell I guess.

The fact that there has been no resolution one way or the other just means the tension will build further.

 

[BetteTheRed]

The fact that there has been no resolution one way or the other just means the tension will build further.

Unless she retires.

 

[revjohn]

Moving forward will likely mean - carrying on as usual.

At least as long as the current governance model is in play. Most conferences are in the midst of transitioning into regions.

There may be some optimism.in thinking that new brooms sweep clean.

Therefore it will likely mean a continuing decline in the number of bums in the pews.

It is highly unlikely that any one resolution of the two possible outcomes would change that future.

The denomination is losing members because it has stopped inviting members to come.

If nobody thinks their congregation has anything to offer anyone then they don't consider offering their church to anyone.

You fail to attract 100% of those you don't invite.

The number has been slowly but steadily going down for decades. I don't see anything here to perk things up.

Then we need to look elsewhere and if numbers are most telling then West Hill and the Reverend Vosper only represent a different flavour of failure.

 

[revjohn]

Unless she retires.

Maybe.

The former Reverend Bob Ripley was retired and retained on roll. He faced discipline for the same point.

Ultimately Bob decided it was not right to bill himself as both an athiest and a minister of the denomination at the same time.

 

[Mendalla]

Maybe.

The former Reverend Bob Ripley was retired and retained on roll. He faced discipline for the same point.

Ultimately Bob decided it was not right to bill himself as both an athiest and a minister of the denomination at the same time.

I've met Bob and heard him speak. Gretta seems to be cut from a rather different cloth. Not sure I'd expect the same decision from her.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I've met Bob and heard him speak. Gretta seems to be cut from a rather different cloth. Not sure I'd expect the same decision from her.

I've met Gretta, but not Bob. I absolutely think she views herself as a legit product of the United Church of Canada. You can't open these Pandora's boxes via means like the New Curriculum, and not expect mixed results. I have a son who is a pretty orthodox member of a very orthodox UCC, despite the fact that he's largely homeless. My daughter, OTOH, will play ukulele for VBC, occasionally help me with Meals on Wheels, but would not be found dead on Sunday morning in a church.

 

[paradox3]

I've met Gretta, but not Bob. I absolutely think she views herself as a legit product of the United Church of Canada. You can't open these Pandora's boxes via means like the New Curriculum, and not expect mixed results.

Yes, I agree that she views herself this way. She repeats this narrative almost as often as the bloggers in Bangladesh story. And I get your point about the mixed results.

What Gretta manages to ignore is that others have had similar education (New Curriculum through to theological school) & reached different conclusions. The vibe from her has always been that she is the one who got it right. She has been on a mission for several years to move the denomination to her way of thinking.

I realize you may view her differently and this could all be moot given the agreement reached with her. I have heard her in two radio interviews recently and found her somewhat more kindly disposed to the church. Time will tell.

 

[paradox3]

Maybe.

The former Reverend Bob Ripley was retired and retained on roll. He faced discipline for the same point.

Ultimately Bob decided it was not right to bill himself as both an athiest and a minister of the denomination at the same time.

I read Bob Ripley's book and enjoyed it. He reached similar conclusions to GV but he presents himself quite differently. And he has stated publicly that he supports the church's "right and duty" to examine gretta's ministry. Seems to be a nice guy who regrets any hurt his decisions have caused.

 

[Luce NDs]

I read Bob Ripley's book and enjoyed it. He reached similar conclusions to GV but he presents himself quite differently. And he has stated publicly that he supports the church's "right and duty" to examine gretta's ministry. Seems to be a nice guy who regrets any hurt his decisions have caused.

If they investigated Gretta's propositions might thye learn something of themself? Heaven forbid education and science ... too observable ... for an interim position we are in between two dimensions of chaos ... emotional and unknowing ... you can almost see the thoughts leaving when folk get fired up ...

In the end the devilish gatherer giggles at what was collected by those observing with wide spread ayre ... that's Eire ... here and now in the land of the unknow 'n! It's ETA in some expressions sometimes appearing as "ħ" small hertz? The payen into knowing something Nous ... when mortalized your limited ...

 

[Mendalla]

What Gretta manages to ignore is that others have had similar education (New Curriculum through to theological school) & reached different conclusions. The vibe from her has always been that she is the one who got it right. She has been on a mission for several years to move the denomination to her way of thinking.

This is where I wrestle with her. Obviously given my own trajectory, I have no issue with her theological outlook or conclusions. While I'm less resolutely atheist than she seems to be, I'm certainly well beyond any kind of traditional theism. However, what baffles is the expectation that the church will change to accommodate her. I didn't expect that. I was happy to let the UCCan be the UCCan and moved on. And with my family history of involvement in the church, it's not like I lacked a deep connection to the denomination. I guess she has a sense of mission that I lack, but when there's an alternative that fits better, that's how I tend to lean.