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"Predestination" - what say you?

Discussion in 'Religion and Faith' started by PilgrimsProgress, May 18, 2018.

  1. PilgrimsProgress

    PilgrimsProgress Well-Known Member

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    I have a good Anglican friend who was most upset when she invited the minister to her church Bible study group - and he was "ambushed" by a member of the congregation who said he didn't believe in predestination.
    She assumes I do believe in predestination - but I don't.

    What do other's believe? Is it still discussed in most churches?
     
  2. Jae

    Jae Well-Known Member

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    We don't usually discuss it at my church. My Pastor will discuss it when it's mentioned in a passage he's preaching on.

    Personally, I believe that God has predestined some people to be in the Kingdom of Heaven. However, unlike some Christians, I do not believe that God has predestined people for Hell.
     
  3. Luce NDs

    Luce NDs Well-Known Member

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    Is free will predestined for hell ... and thus a good reason for resurrecting the aforesaid as we get too bound up and constipated by roué 'L ... from them that know even less than the aggregate social psyche!

    Aggregate psyche is a wall to be put down by those looking at society from an alternate vision ... oily Garcia? Tis a slippery wall with all that Mos on it ...

    There is natural law ... and unnatural laws to try and depose nature of things ... like separate sects ...
     
  4. chansen

    chansen Pleasant Enough

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    That both sides are nuts.
     
  5. Luce NDs

    Luce NDs Well-Known Member

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    Wise words from the significant alternate ... as yet unknown to the polity of Deus! Parallelism in use ... some say satire to amuse what?

    We don't know ...

    However rational for multiple etudes ... broad studies?
     
  6. Waterfall

    Waterfall Well-Known Member

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    This may be related to whether God would be considered timeless or temporal?
    If God is temporal then his thoughts and actions are in the moment...... would that rule out predestination? Hmmmm.......
     
  7. revsdd

    revsdd Creation Is A Beautiful Thing

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    What was being discussed as "predestination"? That's always my first question.

    Is it really "predestination" (ie. God has predestined from all eternity who will and/or won't be saved) or is it "predeterminism" (ie, God has decided every last detail and is responsible for every single thing that happens)? They're different things. Many Christians get them confused. Someone falls and breaks their leg and says "it was predestined." Something terrible happens and someone says "God planned it that way." No. That's not what predestination means.

    The amount of talk about "predestination" in a church would correlate directly to how "calvinistic" the church is in its theology. Calvinism and predestination go hand in hand.

    In a church that isn't "calvinistic" there likely would be very little talk of predestination in the classical theological sense of the word.
     
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  8. Mendalla

    Mendalla A Node in the Interdependent Web

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    Well, in my UU fellowship, it was mostly discussed as one of the things our faith had recoiled from and that had driven some of the older members from other churches (mostly older, more Calvinist-leaning versions of Presbyterianism). My family UCCan didn't talk about it at all that I can recall, and really seemed, as I have said before, to believe anyone was going to Hell, even if they still officially believed in Hell. Tacit universalism I generally call it. So, really, I encountered the concept of predestination the first time I read about Calvinism, which I think was actually in history class (looking at the Reformation and it's impact on history). It was never really a part of my faith upbringing or education that I can recall.
     
  9. Pontifex Geronimo 13

    Pontifex Geronimo 13 #walkaway

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  10. unsafe

    unsafe Well-Known Member

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    This is another one of those hard mystery's of scripture that some Religions just decide what this word predestines means and run with putting their spin on it -----in my opinion -----

    Doing much research on how this is used in scripture as well as looking up the real meaning of this word in the original language and understanding how it applies to what God was really meaning is needed with this subject -----

    I personally don't believe that --God chooses certain individual people to go to Heaven and says to hell with all the rest of His Creation ----the Bible is very clear that that Jesus died for all people to be free of sin and be saved but not all people will come to accept His free Gift of Salvation ---why is that ----it is a mystery !----did God decide for us ----or did we reject His Free Gift all by ourselves ????????????


    Romans 8:29 ----says this ---New International Version
    For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

    Study Bible
    God Works In All Things
    28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.…


    This is the Greek word for Foreknew in this scripture


    4267. proginóskó
    Strong's Concordance
    proginóskó: to know beforehand
    Original Word: προγινώσκω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: proginóskó
    Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
    Short Definition: I know beforehand
    Definition: I know beforehand, foreknow.
    HELPS Word-studies
    4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them" (G. Archer).

    [See also Jer 18:8-10 on the perfect harmony of divine sovereignty and human freedom.]

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is the Greek word for Predestination in the scripture

    4309. proorizó
    Strong's Concordance
    proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain
    Original Word: προορίζω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: proorizó
    Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
    Short Definition: I foreordain, predetermine
    Definition: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.
    HELPS Word-studies
    4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724/horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine.

    [4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724 /horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. before creation.]



    This is Matthew Henry's Commentary on this -----

    Matthew Henry Commentary


    8:28-31 That is good for the saints which does their souls good. Every providence tends to the spiritual good of those that love God; in breaking them off from sin, bringing them nearer to God, weaning them from the world, and fitting them for heaven. When the saints act out of character, corrections will be employed to bring them back again. And here is the order of the causes of our salvation, a golden chain, one which cannot be broken. 1. Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. All that God designed for glory and happiness as the end, he decreed to grace and holiness as the way. The whole human race deserved destruction; but for reasons not perfectly known to us, God determined to recover some by regeneration and the power of his grace. He predestinated, or before decreed, that they should be conformed to the image of his Son. In this life they are in part renewed, and walk in his steps. 2. Whom he did predestinate, them he also called. It is an effectual call, from self and earth to God, and Christ, and heaven, as our end; from sin and vanity to grace and holiness, as our way. This is the gospel call. The love of God, ruling in the hearts of those who once were enemies to him, proves that they have been called according to his purpose. 3. Whom he called, them he also justified. None are thus justified but those that are effectually called. Those who stand out against the gospel call, abide under guilt and wrath. 4. Whom he justified, them he also glorified. The power of corruption being broken in effectual calling, and the guilt of sin removed in justification, nothing can come between that soul and glory. This encourages our faith and hope; for, as for God, his way, his work, is perfect. The apostle speaks as one amazed, and swallowed up in admiration, wondering at the height and depth, and length and breadth, of the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge. The more we know of other things, the less we wonder; but the further we are led into gospel mysteries, the more we are affected by them. While God is for us, and we keep in his love, we may with holy boldness defy all the powers of darkness.
     
  11. revsdd

    revsdd Creation Is A Beautiful Thing

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    Generally speaking, in my experience most people have a functional quasi-universalist perspective.

    Over the years I've done funerals for people from a whole variety of faith perspectives - from atheist to SBNR to mainline to solidly evangelical and verging on fundamentalist. While in theory those from the latter two groups usually believe that the unsaved are going to hell it's always interesting to me that when it's a member of their own family (regardless of the faith perspective of the deceased) there's still a lot of talk about how so and so is "looking down on us." Only once do I recall presiding at a funeral in which someone commented that the deceased was now in hell.

    (The only funeral I can remember ever turning down on theological terms was when a funeral home called and asked by chance if I could perform a Wiccan service. I had to respectfully decline - not because I have anything personal against Wiccans - but I'm not one and could not in good conscience do a funeral that would ask me to promote Wiccan beliefs that I don't believe in.)
     
  12. Mendalla

    Mendalla A Node in the Interdependent Web

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    I think a UU chaplain or minister might take it but only after consulting the Wiccans in their congregation/community (the London fellowship had at least one pagan with Wiccan ties, though I think she had left Wicca for some reason). I know the chaplains did handfastings as part of wedding ceremonies from time to time.
     
  13. Luce NDs

    Luce NDs Well-Known Member

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    Such Wicci'd communication about literary device ... Satyr? Tis all below the horizon for those holding fast to flat out stuff ...
     
  14. jimkenney12

    jimkenney12 Active Member

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    When the complexity of the universe, even of our own planet or individual communities, predestination or predeterminism seem like a waste of God's attention.
     
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  15. Mendalla

    Mendalla A Node in the Interdependent Web

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    Although that very complexity may be how God manages it. It is just so complex that God is the only one who can actually make total sense of it. (No, I don't actually believe this, just tossing out a possible philosophical objection to your statement).
     
  16. Inannawhimsey

    Inannawhimsey M&M, Cascadian Lovers

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    i know, eh?
    and here we r, mere imperfect beings, doing amazing things like creating a drum (or a simple computer) that both drums and doesn't drum (or makes a calculation without making a calculation) violating Aristotlean logic; we r doing and making things that r new under the sun as well as the standard...
     
  17. revjohn

    revjohn Well-Known Member

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    Not sure how one gets ambushed by somebody claiming what they do or do not believe.

    There is a proverb about assuming. I just leave it at that.



    It is very much central to the Doctrines of Grace so, yeah. I believe in Predestination.

    I do not go out of my way to bring it up. Whenever a lectionary text points to it I certainly bring it up.
     
  18. Carolla

    Carolla wondering & wandering

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    I can't honestly recall it being discussed in church!

    I appreciate Revsdd's explanations.

    I have in my work often encountered people of other faiths who do believe that everything that happens to them is the will of the Divine to which they must submit, suffer through etc. On the one hand, many are at peace with that - not asking "why me" in the face of challenges. On the other hand, in our current health system which focuses on getting up & getting going again ... it can be an impediment to rehab sometimes.
     
  19. PilgrimsProgress

    PilgrimsProgress Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, folks!
    Now I understand why I'm sometimes asked by "church attending people", "Are you saved?".......

    Each to their own belief, but I do have my doubts.

    Why would a loving God choose to select some - but not all - for saving? Is heaven just another county club for members only?
    If God is a God of grace, wouldn't the gracious thing to do is save everyone?

    A bit off thread, but what exactly is the New Covenant? Is it based on Jesus' commandment to love God and love neighbour? Or is it about substitution atonement? (ie Jesus died for my sins -so sins are a thing of the past?)
    If the latter, what is the point of loving God and neighbour?
     
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  20. Inannawhimsey

    Inannawhimsey M&M, Cascadian Lovers

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    Sometimes it feels like, with Christians, that we're trading baseball cards and statistics lol

     
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