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No Santa? No Kids.

Discussion in 'Family Life' started by Jae, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. Mendalla

    Mendalla A Node in the Interdependent Web

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    OTOH, women's shelters in some communities are running at capacity, too. Not sure about the two main ones here at present, but I know they've had issues in the past.
     
    Northwind likes this.
  2. Kimmio

    Kimmio Well-Known Member

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    More need to be built. Maybe specifically for new moms with addictions and possibly being abused themselves. Less expensive than hospitals, could promote healthy choices and prevent costs to future health and social services. But control of it should be in the hands of the communities themselves. They should have the last word on it, on what they need and the specifics on the way they think it should be handled. Until then, I don't see why provisions can't be made, to extend hospital stays a few days until family care agreements are completed. She just had zero say. They needed to not take her baby until she'd argued her case and her plan.

    Obviously this has upset a big portion of the country. I'm not alone. And it's good because the public should know.

    In one of the articles, it explains how indigenous woman are discriminated against when, say the father of the child who isn't supposed to be around due to court order, just shows up and gets abusive...or not abusive, but his presence is enough to trigger a child removal. Then the kids get taken from mom. So, safe community services for aboriginal women and children, together, seems pretty paramount.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019 at 6:47 PM
  3. Kimmio

    Kimmio Well-Known Member

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    *and if she had argued her case and had a plan, they probably shouldn't have taken her baby away at all. They can make arrangements for the baby to be safe but not totally separated from mom. Theirs is the wrong place to be asserting a punishment policy. Ie. "Shape up and we'll give you your child back." Ruthless policy that disproportionately impacts indigenous women - more so than white women who also sometimes drink and do drugs when pregnant, and can be bad parents out of public but don't face the same racist assumptions ... no child services worker going to make that white middle class woman who enjoyed some Merlot when she shouldn't have, sign her rights away on the delivery table, like they do to indigenous women in large numbers.
     
  4. BetteTheRed

    BetteTheRed Resident Heretic

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    I do need to point out to everyone here that the most critical stage of infant bonding happens right now. If infants must be taken away, seems to me that it should be some sort of mother-child house arrest somewhere supervised. At this point you're probably also dealing with FAS, so let's not kick the baby while it's down.
     
    Kimmio likes this.
  5. Kimmio

    Kimmio Well-Known Member

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    A halfway house - but a humane and supportive one, rather than seen as punishment under duress, seen as helpful because it really is helpful and effective...one with family involvement? Again, I think the communities can come together and decide that themselves though.
     
  6. Kimmio

    Kimmio Well-Known Member

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    You may not be dealing with FAS, also. That's an assumption. It's possible, not always probable. I agree though, regardless, infant bonding is most important and we don't know what the accute separation might be doing to their brain synapses. It's traumatizing all around. The mothers then may need counselling for these traumas, of having their kids taken away, too (Which requires resources). What's more dehumanizing than having a stranger, or a few uniformed strangers, take a mom's newborn away involuntarily? It just makes a bad situation worse.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019 at 7:24 PM
  7. BetteTheRed

    BetteTheRed Resident Heretic

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    Kimmio, when the poor woman appears to arrive to deliver, intoxicated, and the CAS are pre-planning removal, yeah, you're probably dealing with FAS. However, I don't know why we can't come up with a humane system to keep almost every single mother with her baby, for at least the first six months, even if it has to be a closely supervised situation. For the baby's well-being.
     
    Northwind likes this.
  8. Kimmio

    Kimmio Well-Known Member

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    The riskiest time for FAS is during the first 3 months of pregnancy - when many women don't yet know they're pregnant - who shared that bottle of wine at dinner when they were a month or two pregnant...it can happen to white women, and their fetuses, too, who don't have their kids removed as soon as they're born. There is a racist and disproportionate element of assumption in this policy and practice.

    The mother's well being is also very important - to mitigate things like her developing PTSD. Intergenerational PTSD. Which adds to risk of more self medicating, etc.

    She and another family member said she was not intoxicated when she came in, also. There was no opportunity for her to defend her position.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019 at 7:59 PM
  9. Kimmio

    Kimmio Well-Known Member

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  10. Northwind

    Northwind Still knitting. Singing when I can.

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    As @Mrs.Anteater pointed out, the woman likely was in contact with CFS for several months. It is unlikely this was a surprise for her. Also, they do not apprehend children, babies especially, without cause. There is a duty to report law that requires professionals/helpers to report anything that indicates a child is at risk. Again, it is very unlikely that this child was removed without cause. Also, child welfare workers and police have to follow specific protocol for removing children.

    This is certainly a terrible situation for all. Mothers whose children have been removed usually feel incredible guilt and sorrow. There is usually a process they need to follow to have their children back into their care.

    Yes, Indigenous women are disproportionately in this position. There are many reasons for this. There are some great supports being developed.

    We do not know the details of this case so cannot presume to know best.
     
    ChemGal and Pinga like this.
  11. Kimmio

    Kimmio Well-Known Member

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  12. Pinga

    Pinga Room for All

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    Wouldn't it be wonderful if the baby could talk?

    The baby can't.

    You do not know what the situation is. The video did exactly what it was intended to do. Let's put this out there, in a place where the FCS cannot respond, and get people riled up.

    @BetteTheRed -- I seem to remember a case where a prenant mother was jailed to keep a baby healthy and the uproar.
    Can you imagine locking up a new mom to keep her from getting drugs or drinking while caring for a baby? Do you think that all women should have the care of their new born?

    I had a friend who ended up with two small children, from a mom who used to leave the baby in the crib, and the toddler looking after it while she went out drinking. Sure, she didn't want her children taken from her either.

    No matter how much a mom cries, o a family member videos, if a child is unsafe in its situation, then i will error on the side of the child being protected.
     
    Northwind likes this.
  13. Pinga

    Pinga Room for All

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    Yes, I am confused by your post. I do not understand your logic, so am asking you to clarify what part you struggle with
    a) did you miss that they knew that his would happen?
    b) do you not understand the requirement to keep infants safe, and that can mean removal


    @Kimmio , you have resorted to a personal attack on @Northwind and on me. That is neither necessary, nor does it add value to the discussion.
     
    Northwind likes this.
  14. Northwind

    Northwind Still knitting. Singing when I can.

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    @Pinga there was a situation years ago in Manitoba where they jailed or otherwise held a pregnant woman hostage in order to make sure her baby was healthy. There was much discussion on this. Ultimately it was seen as not okay.
     
    Pinga likes this.
  15. Kimmio

    Kimmio Well-Known Member

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    The way you treat my right to an opinion as an affront to others right to have theirs, is also personal attack. Northwind telling me that I need to go there and test my expertise before I comment, was an attack.

    I don't understand your logic. If 90% of the kids in care in Manitoba - a rate of 125% more than other populations, is still happening, the system of removing children at birth - as has always been done - doesn't work and I don't understand your first reaction being to defend the power and authority and status quo that allows it. That logic seems to be missing something, imo.
     
  16. Kimmio

    Kimmio Well-Known Member

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    Laws being laws doesn't mean they are just or effective.
     
  17. Northwind

    Northwind Still knitting. Singing when I can.

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    I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

    Things are changing. There have been many great changes in the past 30 years or so. Is there need for more change? Most likely. Change doesn't happen overnight.

    Still, there will likely always be reasons for children to be apprehended for their safety. How would you respond if this baby had gone home then died because of abuse or neglect? That's another possible outcome to stories like this.
     
  18. Pinga

    Pinga Room for All

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    @Northwind, That was what I remembered. Can you imagine the uproar of forcibly confining a new mother with her baby? (for the sole protection of the infant??)

    I had a friend who was notified when her daugher was pregnant. Her daughter was an addict but had done a pretty good job of caring for herself during pregnancy. The daughter was not going to be able to care for the child, and my friend was advised of the babies challenges, and was able to become the primary care giver. Baby went home with her.

    For the 2nd pregnancy, the mother had slipped further, and was not aware she was pregnant until later in pregnancy. In that case, the newborn was at higher risk due to the drugs taken when the infant was pregnant, the mother's health situation, and, well, less chance of any success.
    Again, the mother was contacted who again ended up caring for the child.

    Addiction is a terrible thing, and there are some cases which defy our own understanding. We cannot put ourselves in that situation, and it is terrible for all, but, the important thing is to ensure the baby is safe, and has the best possible way to recover from any challenges , icnluding addiction, HIV, malnutrition, fetal alcohol and so on.
     
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  19. Northwind

    Northwind Still knitting. Singing when I can.

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    It was not intended as an attack. You seem to think you know what's best. You cite academic articles/stats, yet seem to have no experience with what happens in real life. I know I don't know enough to know that for sure. You seem to need to learn more about what actually happens.

    Removing children at birth is not the only time they are removed. As has been said several times, we do not know what happened for the authorities to take that action. Do you understand that there are improved services for families like this one??
     
  20. Northwind

    Northwind Still knitting. Singing when I can.

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    It really is complicated isn't it @Pinga

    There has been a good effort in educating people about FASD and it is showing good results. We know that damage to the fetus from alcohol can happen anytime during the pregnancy. Many women are choosing to abstain for the entire pregnancy and have supports to do so.
     

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