1. Welcome to Wondercafe2! You are here and we are glad. Enjoy your time. Please visit the Tips & Techniques forum, especially the thread Basic Posting & Forum Info, to learn more about how to use the site.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Wondercafe2 is now using HTTPS. Please start using this instead of HTTP. How-to: Secure Site Update
    Dismiss Notice

God's Sovereignty And Our Freedom To Choose

Discussion in 'Religion and Faith' started by unsafe, May 13, 2018.

  1. unsafe

    unsafe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,940
    Likes Received:
    896
    [​IMG]



    How does God's Sovereignty work with us being able to make our own choices in our personal life ---and that includes accepting or rejecting God's free gift of Salvation --

    Just trying to bring to light a hard subject to understand and one that is not addressed to the Church often ---

    There seems to be very great confusion about this word Sovereignty and how it applies in Scripture to our Free Choice -----it seems that there are many different views on this subject --


    Some of the views I have come across are ----

    Twin Truths: God's Sovereignty and Man's Responsibility - Grace to You

    https://www.gty.org/library/.../twin-truths-gods-sovereignty-and-mans-responsibility

    Feb 17, 2013 - All I can tell you is that in the Word of God, these truths run parallel. ...


    unsafe says ---we see here above that this Minister believes the 2 are true and the run parallel to each other --they will never meet ----


    http://www.awmi.net/reading/teaching-articles/sovereignty_god/

    believe that it was the Lord that caused all his problems. He had resigned himself to the "sovereignty of God."

    I believe this is the worst doctrine in the church today. I know that this is a shocking statement and is near blasphemy to some people, but the way sovereignty" is taught today is a real faith killer. The belief that God controls everything that happens to us is one of the devil’s biggest inroads into our lives. If this belief is true, then our actions are irrelevant, and our efforts are meaningless. What will be will be.


    unsafe says ---Here we see that this Minister believes that it is the worst Doctrine in the Church today ----


    R C Sproul ---says this on a You tube video -----We are free from Coercion but salves to our sin --

    -unsafe says----Here we see this Minister says we are free from coercion -----he gave no scripture for this ---he just said the Bible says this ----so I searched and fond this --

    Does this show no coercion by God in our right to choose ????

    -----Romans 6:20 ---New Living Translation
    When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right.


    John Piper says ---- as far as he is concerned they are 2 truths and we really can't explain it just like we can't explain the trinity ---God is 3 in one ---some things are a mystery and we are just to accept it ----


    unsafe says -----Here we see this Minister saying it is a Mystery and we are to just accept it -----

    And below it says this subject raises a puzzle -----so it doesn't seem to be a subject that is easy to explain and understand----


    The Sovereignty of God Raises a Puzzle

    https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-gods-sovereignty-700697

    A theological puzzle is also raised by the sovereignty of God. If God truly controls everything, how can humans have free will? It is obvious from Scripture and from life that people do have free will. We make both good and bad choices. However, the Holy Spirit prompts the human heart to choose God, a good choice. In the examples of King David and the Apostle Paul, God also works with man's bad choices to turn lives around.


    unsafe says
    This we know for sure that nothing and no one will stop God's Sovereign Plans that He has laid out to bring to pass His Will ---He will use whatever means He wishes to do so ----like sending His Son to die on the cross to fix what His Creation destroyed ----restoring this world back to the way He wants it which is still in the future ----

    Isaiah 10 gives an example of this ---where He uses Assyria to bring about His Will ---Assyria has no say in the matter -----We Humans don't have any free will to stop God's Plan from being acted on -----But what about our personal decisions to reject or accept what God's Grace offers ---or to decide to say drive while we are impaired and have an accident killing another person in the process ------


    Isaiah 10 ERV
    God Will Punish Assyria’s Pride
    5 The Lord says, "I will use Assyria like a stick. In my anger I will use Assyria to punish Israel. 6 I will send Assyria to fight against the people who do evil. I am angry with them, and I will command Assyria to fight against them. Assyria will defeat them and take their wealth. Israel will be like dirt for Assyria to walk on in the streets.7 "But Assyria does not understand that I will use him. He does not think of himself as my tool.


    unsafe says----Is our human personal decision on a day to day bases affected by God's Sovereignty ?

    If God is in complete control of everything that happens to us and is in control of all the decisions we make--- does that not make us His machines and free from all sin that we commit and all evil that we do --God would then be responsible for it all -----all our decisions ---all the wars that are started by us humans -------all the fires that ravage our towns and take lives that are set by human hands ----the car accidents that happen that kill people and all bad situations that happen in our lives -----all the birth defects --all sickness and disease that ravish us --and all would be Saved without Jesus dying on the Cross -----God could just uses His Sovereign abilities to save all people--no need for Jesus or His word ---


    unsafe says
    This word Sovereign what does it really mean in the Bible sense ----I Found this below ---read all here just posting some points -----

    http://www.crbible.com/%2Fzupload%2Fsite-options%2F-2Fzupload-2Fsite-options-2FThe-Truth-about-Sovereignty11.pdf

    The Truth about Sovereignty

    What does the Bible really teach about sovereignty? Let me shock you. The word "sovereign" and "sovereignty" are not in our King James Bible.

    • The NIV substitutes the word "sovereign" for the word "God" over 300 times.

    Instead of "Lord God" they use the term "sovereign Lord."

    • According to the Oxford English Dictionary the name "sovereign Lord" is one of

    99 names the Muslims use for their God, Allah.


    4. The word sovereign was introduced into the English language by the French speaking sovereigns who governed England in the 12th century. It was originally a French word.


    • It was almost used exclusively to describe a mortal, political leader, not the transcendent, Almighty God.

    • "Webster's Online Dictionary" defines sovereignty as "supreme power over a body politic," again associating it with governmental authority.


    5. The word eventually got introduced into theology in certain religious circles and owes its impetus to John Calvin. He was a Frenchman and would naturally use such a word.

    • The word "sovereign" encapsulates his French training for the priesthood, his denial of free will, and his teachings merging church and state.

    • Christian, be very careful how you throw around the word "sovereign." God is not up in heaven pushing buttons and pulling levers and making everything that happens happen. Do not lay at His feet the evil and wicked choices of mankind and Satan.


    unsafe posted
    the Hebrew and Greek Meanings for this word


    The Hebrew word for sovereignty is ----

    4467. mamlakah ►

    Strong's Concordance

    mamlakah: kingdom, sovereignty, dominion, reign

    kingdom, king's, reign, royal

    From malak; dominion, i.e. (abstractly) the estate (rule) or (concretely) the country (realm) -- kingdom, king's, reign, royal.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Greek word is

    932. basileia ►

    Strong's Concordance

    basileia: kingdom, sovereignty, royal power

    Original Word: βασιλεία, ας, ἡ


    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: basileia

    Phonetic Spelling: (bas-il-i'-ah)

    Short Definition: kingship, sovereignty, authority, rule, kingdom

    Definition: kingship, sovereignty, authority, rule, especially of God, both in the world, and in the hearts of men; hence: kingdom, in the concrete sense.

    HELPS Word-studies

    932 basileía (from 935 /basileús, "king") – properly, kingdom; the realm in which a king sovereignly rules.


    A kingdom (932 /basileía) always requires a king – as the kingdom (932 /basileía) of God does with King Jesus!

    932 (basileía) especially refers to the rule of Christ in believers' hearts – which is a rule that "one day will be universal on the physical earth in the Millennium" (G. Archer).


    unsafe says ---if you read Ezeckiel 11 it talks about God changing a stone heart to an obedient heart but there is a commanded condition to it as we seen in verse 18 ------18 When they return, they are to get rid of all the filthy, disgusting idols they find. 19 I will give them a new heart and a new mind. I will take away their stubborn heart of stone and will give them an obedient heart.

    Read chapter here if interested ---
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+11&version=GNT


    unsafe says ---
    So what do We really think about this word ---Does God use His Sovereignty to control our every personal decision to His tune so that we are just puppets under His reign ---- Does He use it to Save just some people and say the Hell with the rest ----even though His word makes it clear that He wants all people saved -----couldn't He just save all people all at once and be done with it ----and then why is there a god of this world which God Himself put here to have limited rule over His creation if God is in control of all things ----

    Questions ????

    If God wanted complete rule over everything and everybody ----Why then did He allow Lucifer to become Satan and put him in charge of this world ----Where does Evil fit into our thoughts and actions did God put them there ?????

    How then do we reconcile God's Sovereignty with our Free personal choices ----Do we have any Free personal choice at all or just some limited choices -----

    What are our thoughts on this ?
     
  2. Luce NDs

    Luce NDs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    34,259
    Likes Received:
    3,361
    I t appears in light of knowledge the Lord's sovereignty is hum*bled and thus below our horizon ... a psychic item! Bloody well unacceptable by rite of emotionalism ... right?

    Now is the psyche myth ... or just a dark and aesthetic Shadowland for seekers ... ration of wisdom as Black Horse in the night ... imagined rider headed for the Don? Don in Celtic myth being a hole in the dark and unknown as the story does down with the Rev ... that could be Rebbe in that red haired mystery ... thus lesser rabble as the waste of a good teacher in light of the fiery preacher loaded with polity!

    Tis a life of ease though to let others make the mistakes for you and be rate them in presence of the top o' logis thus centred self in lieu of the alter ego? (logis --- is sometimes scripted as logic or even logos as hidden from those of negative will, or not desiring to examine the unknown; sometimes generating a sticking point ... a stick-leer)

    Is the God of wisdom baffled ... thus fenced by the veil or Wahl of emotion? Essentially to those denying thought on the topic ... they are denied access ... due to free will of opportunistic nature ... having a fatalistic result on the other side of the veil ... a flimsy divide between da*viđus and the chimera ... creatures of the mind and sol occupants of inspired domains ... beautifully abstract so fiery opinion-ists can't see it for the flare ... causing whitewashing of the black MIR! Undoubtedly shadowy ...

    *With variance of the "đ" icon this can become divichis and thus literary shift as the device of thought evolves to prevent discovery by those of presumptuous free will to control the unknown ... the Impossible Dream ... thus Ithchus that sensation of something smells? Could be as fishy as de Vichy's code ... water bubbling out of a crack in the rock? Could be a icon of more unknowns than you could imagine ... this lying right under what you nose ...

    If however you settle for simple shelter clothing and food ... you can ignore health of soul from learning intelligence ... that initially beyond the poor stumped child as arriving dropped from a screaming mutter hood ... the fey alternate in delivery rooms! God bless the work involved ...

    Concepts are often alien to excess opinions ...

    Life remains thus a curiosity or enigma ... and one may go to great heights to ask the isolated about the bowel of cherries ... that's the guru ... a rising's ain't, as it may not arrive as it appears ... a pounding, flailing purple wee beast! By rites of nine periods missing ... magi?

    The gift of not knowing and why Hagar as Hagis learned of a host of methods of controlling birth of brutes ... put the seed in á Saac ... phonetic Isaac! (as Aye see it ... thus variance and valence)!

    Valence is the device that draws the curtain ... and thus the stage is blocked ...
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  3. unsafe

    unsafe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,940
    Likes Received:
    896
    Here is John Piper's view on view on God's Sovereignty ---


     
  4. unsafe

    unsafe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,940
    Likes Received:
    896
    This is interesting -----

    Ravi makes the point we have limited freedom of choice. He doesn't split hairs over whether every choice is corrupt or not, he just makes the point that a Being who has total sovereignty can offer lesser beings a smidgen of sovereignty.

    This is a 1 min video that Ravi answers a question about free will -----

     
    Inannawhimsey likes this.
  5. blackbelt1961

    blackbelt1961 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,720
    Likes Received:
    1,513
    Love Dr Ravi
     
    unsafe likes this.
  6. chansen

    chansen Pleasant Enough

    Messages:
    9,107
    Likes Received:
    6,599
    And I like it when you two agree. I like that it happens so often.
     
    Jae likes this.
  7. Mendalla

    Mendalla A Node in the Interdependent Web

    Messages:
    20,917
    Likes Received:
    12,706
    Nothing like an evangelical Christian bromance to warm the heart, eh? :cat:
     
    Inannawhimsey, Northwind and Jae like this.
  8. chansen

    chansen Pleasant Enough

    Messages:
    9,107
    Likes Received:
    6,599
    It's like a credibility vortex.
     
    Inannawhimsey likes this.
  9. Jae

    Jae Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    27,390
    Likes Received:
    3,361
    Many evangelicals appreciate the ministry of Dr. Ravi - my pastor included. I don't have anything against Dr. Ravi - but I wouldn't say that I love his work either.

    I've never before felt there was a bromance going on between @unsafe and @blackbelt. The one I used to notice was @unsafe and @airclean.

    Now - as to the actual topic of this thread - I feel that human will is in bondage to sin until Jesus sets said will free. I feel that to have free will is why humanity needs a Savior.

    Many (most?) evangelicals feel ďifferently than this. They feel that humans must have at least enough free will to choose to accept Christ. The Bible suggests we start life spiritually dead - but it seems many Christians prefer to feel that means spiritually maimed - or spiritually weak.

    As a result - they often say things like - 'There's nothing you can do to be saved. You cannot do enough good deeds to be saved. You cannot be saved by getting yourself baptized and taking communion. You cannot be saved by coming to church enough times. The only thing you can do to get saved is to accept Jesus.'

    Well - which is it - there's nothing you can do - or there's one thing you can do?!
     
  10. blackbelt1961

    blackbelt1961 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,720
    Likes Received:
    1,513


    hmmmm, unsafe is a girl, no bro happenings here
     
    unsafe and Inannawhimsey like this.
  11. Jae

    Jae Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    27,390
    Likes Received:
    3,361
    Right, I know. I used, "bromance" in response to @Mendalla since he used it first. What we're really talking about is platonic friendship.
     
  12. Mendalla

    Mendalla A Node in the Interdependent Web

    Messages:
    20,917
    Likes Received:
    12,706
    I tend to forget @unsafe's gender. Apologies.
     
  13. Inannawhimsey

    Inannawhimsey M&M, Cascadian Lovers

    Messages:
    9,947
    Likes Received:
    2,912
    i've enjoyed some of his riffs
     
  14. unsafe

    unsafe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,940
    Likes Received:
    896
    Jae ---your quote ----- The Bible suggests we start life spiritually dead -

    You are so right ----it doesn't just suggest it --it says we are by our own doing -------to be spiritually dead is to be disconnected from God who is Spirit ----it does not mean out brain is dead Jae ----we can still think and make choices and act on those choices -----

    The Question is ----who is directing the thoughts-- choices and actions we make ---is God directing all thoughts choices and actions even in our fallen state --Or--- Is Satan who God appointed to be the god of this word directing our thoughts and choices in our fallen state ---OR -----Are we ourselves responsible for our thoughts --choices and actions in our fallen state ------

    We are Spiritually disconnected from God in our Fallen State but if we believe God is in Control of everything that happens in this world and is in control of everything all His Creation does then wouldn't God be in charge over our thoughts ---choices and actions ----God would be responsible for everything we do --would He not -----

    If we do evil God would have directed the evil; act ---we would be free from blame cause we were directed by God to do the act ------Many believe God is in complete control of everything that happens to all He Created -------we have no free will -----His Sovereignty Trumps all else ----

    Where do you fit into this subject do you have free will or not ----does God make you do all that you do -----does God make you sin ----or are you responsible for your own actions when you sin or did Satan make you do it -----

    What about the people who call themselves atheists who make them do bad things or good things -----if they says they don't believe in a God does that free them to make their own thoughts ---choices and action and the rest of us are God's puppets ------


    [​IMG]
     
    blackbelt1961 likes this.
  15. unsafe

    unsafe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,940
    Likes Received:
    896
    unsafe says ----Read all at link below ----I just posted one section of this

    The Supreme Ethic of Love and Freedom of the Will


    The Supreme Ethic of Love and Freedom of the Will | GetAlongWithGod.com

    This is a transcript from Ravi Zacharias’ response to an atheist playing devil’s advocate Posted on February 22, 2018 by Guest.

    The point even the hedonist realized was that in pleasure also, value and love are the supreme ethics that can be treasured. But you can never have love without intrinsically weaving into it, the freedom of the will. You cannot have love without the freedom of the will. If you are compelled by some machine to a certain decision, you can never love. You can comply but you will never be choosing to express that sentiment and the reality of love. If love is the supreme ethic and freedom is indispensable to love and God’s supreme goal for you and for me is that we will love Him with all our heart and love our neighbor as ourselves, for Him to violate our free will would be to violate that which is a necessary component so that love can flourish and love can be expressed.

    If you are asking for God to always stop the trigger, why not ask God for everything else? Next time you make a pot of boiling water, He makes it frozen water instead. Next time you cross the street and you are about to be hit, He pulls your leg back. What you are asking for is a different entity than humanity. As wonderful as it may seem, in stopping that you think He is protecting you from that which is destructive. The greatest denial that you are asking for is the freedom of will to be able to choose and love God with all your heart and soul. When you have love as the supreme ethic and the freedom of the will to choose that love, all the other contingencies come in, and become explained why it is possible to either choose or reject so that love can ultimately reign supreme. If you want compliance and some kind of a mechanical response, your question itself will self-destruct. You are asking the question because you are free to ask it and you are free to ask it because you are free to love. And when you love Him in spite of all the contraries that you see around us, you are trusting Him for having the supreme wisdom and knowledge to ultimately bring a pattern out of it all. We think, for example, we know so much.
     
  16. chansen

    chansen Pleasant Enough

    Messages:
    9,107
    Likes Received:
    6,599
    Sorry, who makes us do bad things? On whose authority are we doing bad things? You get scriptural authority. What do we have?

    You're not puppets of God. Your puppets of religious leaders and biblical authors. You're proudly gullible and celebrate the ease with which you can be manipulated. Cigarette packages have warnings on them and pictures of what can happen to a person who smokes. People like you serve as the warning of what can happen to a person who believes in God. You fill a vital role in the religious debate just by being visible.
     
    Northwind and Inannawhimsey like this.
  17. Luce NDs

    Luce NDs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    34,259
    Likes Received:
    3,361
    Just recall that free thought is not allowed in the realm of free will ... although later free will may catch up as a flight, or flash of light across the arid area as dark ... a potential denied by those disposing of thoughts in a thorough way as to approach theory of the Boolean mono graph ... Ka Desh (or douche; a thing that'll wash)? These are delightful if without R's wipe/gamma's erasure coming in a flash). The great muttering Clause!

    This may appears as Hebrews imposed on a page buoyed ... pure myth is all we are ... thus the stories are created ...Maidup? Read Andrew Greely and Contract with an Angel ... be guarded to what it means ... in chaos of vanity this is a lessor known items on concern!

    Such myths are layered in both directions ... could mean nothing in either vertor unless you choose with love&careful thought ... mindfully in some systems ...
     
  18. Waterfall

    Waterfall Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,156
    Likes Received:
    3,357


    There seems to be no universal consensus about free will and salvation. Just depends on the church one attends, the scholar or book of the bible that one reads.
    Here's my challenge @unsafe or anyone......who's right?
     
    Northwind likes this.
  19. chansen

    chansen Pleasant Enough

    Messages:
    9,107
    Likes Received:
    6,599
    Ugh. Autocorrect can suck at times. Sorry for that.

    They all think they're right. And the worst part is, the more convinced they are that they know what God wants, the more dangerous they become. Worshippers of God are one thing. Agents of God who believe it is their purpose to set you straight are a scary proposition.
     
  20. unsafe

    unsafe Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,940
    Likes Received:
    896
    Waterfall ---your quote ----Here's my challenge @unsafe or anyone......who's right?

    who's right? ---unsafe says ------Now that is the Million Dollar Question ------?????

    I don't think that anyone has a right answer -----cause if you read scripture --it seems it has both sides covered -----so how do you rationalize that is the question ?
     

Share This Page