What is a Miracle?

And in fact, there was a slight cautionary tale in there. After cardiac surgery, those people who knew they were being prayed for had statistically increased risk for (non-fatal) complications.

You have to think that people who might think they're 'covered' might get a bit sloppier at following post-surgical and follow-up instructions. I've often thought that it was my late ex-stepbrother-in-law's faith in his prayer group that made him a little less careful than he might have been about chemo and follow-up appointments, etc.

There are a few medical events that have taken place during my lifetime which I believe to have been miracles - times when God supernaturally intervened to change things.

Of course there are. I think every person alive has had a moment or two when they said to themselves, "wow, dodged that" or "that could have gone way worse". I think in particular of a bouncing metal garbage can one morning on a highway, which every sense told me was directed straight at me, then seemed to get taken by a gust of wind and missed my vehicle and didn't hit another, either, as far as I could see in rear view.

Again, though, only anecdotal evidence for interventionist god, no evidence. We all have anecdotes, and opinions.

Jae said:

There are a few medical events that have taken place during my lifetime which I believe to have been miracles - times when God supernaturally intervened to change things.

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That's like saying God kept you alive so you could be a substandard advocate on his behalf.

The fact is, all of us reading this today are alive. Crazy observation, I know. But for any number of flukes, each of us could have been dead by now by one event or another. But there are a bunch of ex-people who were not as fortunate as us, and that's easy to forget.

For every miraculous save or recovery, there is a loss. It just wasn't us. Not yet. If we could ask those who died from the hazards or conditions from which we all survived, what would they say? If we asked their families, what would they say? That God is great?

It is incredibly self-centered to look one fortunate turn of events and conclude that it must have been God. This implies that the ones who didn't make it we're somehow purposefully ignored by God, or worse, chosen for death.

I've seen the odds beaten, and I've seen them come and bite us in the ass. It's like this life is random, which is what you'd be left with if you applied Occam's Razor to the assumption of God.

BetteTheRed said:

Of course there are. I think every person alive has had a moment or two when they said to themselves, "wow, dodged that" or "that could have gone way worse". I think in particular of a bouncing metal garbage can one morning on a highway, which every sense told me was directed straight at me, then seemed to get taken by a gust of wind and missed my vehicle and didn't hit another, either, as far as I could see in rear view.

Again, though, only anecdotal evidence for interventionist god, no evidence. We all have anecdotes, and opinions.

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The medical events I can think of were more serious than a bouncing garbage can. The majority of them include heart disease. Specifically, two of them were recoveries from heart attacks.

chansen said:

For every miraculous save or recovery, there is a loss. It just wasn't us. Not yet. If we could ask those who died from the hazards or conditions from which we all survived, what would they say? If we asked their families, what would they say? That God is great?

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When you ask that question, the family that comes most immediately to my mind is that of my Toronto church's former Youth Pastor.

Said Youth Pastor was immediately killed in his 20's in a tragic accident. His family today are all active in churches and will gladly say that God is great.

My own experience is that those who really believe in God praise God for who God is - not just what God does or doesn't do.

Mendalla said:

Sob. Parting is such sweet sorrow.

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Sometimes hairy preening ... nick picking within the hart of how we'd like to see things better in society. Tis praying or prying into what is hidden and buried agends ... sometimes known as sacred conspiracies and some folk can't conjure such possibilities in psyche!

Then if you disbelieve in sol mind psyche complex ... it could be disconnected, isolated and individualized permanently! Maybe not ... if a miracle recovery of mind has an instant in flash ... of what ever was previously denied history!

Allows potential for unconscious sublimity of the Ide ... generally ignored!

chansen said:

That's like saying God kept you alive so you could be a substandard advocate on his behalf.

The fact is, all of us reading this today are alive. Crazy observation, I know. But for any number of flukes, each of us could have been dead by now by one event or another. But there are a bunch of ex-people who were not as fortunate as us, and that's easy to forget.

For every miraculous save or recovery, there is a loss. It just wasn't us. Not yet. If we could ask those who died from the hazards or conditions from which we all survived, what would they say? If we asked their families, what would they say? That God is great?

It is incredibly self-centered to look one fortunate turn of events and conclude that it must have been God. This implies that the ones who didn't make it we're somehow purposefully ignored by God, or worse, chosen for death.

I've seen the odds beaten, and I've seen them come and bite us in the ass. It's like this life is random, which is what you'd be left with if you applied Occam's Razor to the assumption of God.

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Occam's Razor also seems to give a clear cut (like asclepius) as in folk that made the great escape from reality of people like social democracy that is exactly not as the words insinuate ... thus leaving us with absence, abstract and nothing ... described by my grandfather as GOD or when thought is displaced by desires of greater sections of Pi ... the great round thing!

This is found also between gamma and delta ... tight dimensions?

When other peoples desire for nothing expands ... does this staunch (plug) naturals reactions that if resolved can act as relaxation therapy ... and allow the nebuli left from the burning tension to settle after the divisive sects?

As Bung this puts blockage in understanding the greatest story ... devilish enigmas that create interest in why folks that believe fully in love can drive out thinkers of thin proportion as mon arche ... singular rule about de Deus NG the Golden Fleecing problem carried out by radical chaos on either side of the medium ... esoteric, or exoteric ... and thus the plunge sense of means ...

Some stretch of the swan required ... wingers for learning about how not to do it ... elevated pessimism with: "the "common folks should be headless rule?"

May appear as naivete or even loss like ignorance reins ...

chansen said:

That's like saying God kept you alive so you could be a substandard advocate on his behalf.

The fact is, all of us reading this today are alive. Crazy observation, I know. But for any number of flukes, each of us could have been dead by now by one event or another. But there are a bunch of ex-people who were not as fortunate as us, and that's easy to forget.

For every miraculous save or recovery, there is a loss. It just wasn't us. Not yet. If we could ask those who died from the hazards or conditions from which we all survived, what would they say? If we asked their families, what would they say? That God is great?

It is incredibly self-centered to look one fortunate turn of events and conclude that it must have been God. This implies that the ones who didn't make it we're somehow purposefully ignored by God, or worse, chosen for death.

I've seen the odds beaten, and I've seen them come and bite us in the ass. It's like this life is random, which is what you'd be left with if you applied Occam's Razor to the assumption of God.

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Reading this I immediately thought of the book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible. Have you ever read it? You seem to have alot in common with the author. It is considered to be one of the books of wisdom.

There are times to delve into the curios tome ...

Jae said:

When you ask that question, the family that comes most immediately to my mind is that of my Toronto church's former Youth Pastor.

Said Youth Pastor was immediately killed in his 20's in a tragic accident. His family today are all active in churches and will gladly say that God is great.

My own experience is that those who really believe in God praise God for who God is - not just what God does or doesn't do.

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Then what's the point of miracle claims? Christians can't keep their story straight. "God did it," but only if that claim is convenient. Once the claim is inconvenient, suddenly it doesn't matter.

The goalposts aren't just moving, they are spinning.

"they are spinning."

Thus vert echos/egos ... veges in the trees ... prime for change ... when confronting the orangeman!

Allow a smile for that which is miraculously beyond us ... allowed enough chord ...

Like a precedent all agent as awful? Thus american Pi is not as it appears ... Thornapple!

Business as nominal?

I don't deny that signs and wonders exist.

They have meaning only in what they point to. Apart from that, they don't signify much.

A sign telling me, for example, that Carbonear is this far away in that direction means a lot to me if I want to go to Carbonear. If I want to get to Trepassy it might signal that I am going the wrong way. I cannot stop at the sign and hope to do the business I wanted to do in Carbonear as the sign itself is not Carbonear.

I'm thankful for the signs. Nothing really unusual about them though.

Of course, some folk here in NL don't care for things like signs so they can be hard to find, even though they are not trying to hide.

I wonder about terms like Supernatural.

For starters, I think that they are anthropocentric limitations we then apply to God simply because we do not experience it commonly.

How is the resurrection, for example, an unusual activity for God? I may not be able to pull one off. That doesn't mean God is equally unable.

I understand that some folks think that there is a formula which forces God to "perform" or that some folks will experience something rather incredible and assume that God is somehow responsible.

I had a weather-related adventure a few weeks ago. Maybe it was my cool head and reflexes that kept a bad situation from getting much worse. Definitely, it was a poor decision to travel that put me in that difficult spot. Certainly, by the time the adventure was over there were other hearts racing and some might have been racing more than mine.

Was I saved miraculously? How would we even begin to test that? I wasn't up for repeating the event to see if things went differently. I suspect the fellow drivers who were unwitting participants in the adventure would have been up for repeating the event to see if things went worse of better if they prayed about it or not.

I am not cognizant I was praying. I know I prayed afterward as part of my emotional debriefing. God did not interrupt the prayer to say that at no time did God participate in any event. Nor did God offer that it was about time I recognized he was saving me from my own stupid decisions. I gather that would not have been the first time and it likely won't be the last. As much as I like to do risk analysis on all activities there are some variables I never account for.

I'm not threatened by claims of the miraculous. I am irritated by the use of the word so easily. I'm quite happy that someone recognizes they have been given a sign up until such time as it becomes obvious that folk are happy with the sign itself and not what it was pointing them to.

At minimum every sign and every wonder affirms just how powerless we truly are in the face of what may come. They should be a source of humility and thanksgiving.

Jae said:

The medical events I can think of were more serious than a bouncing garbage can. The majority of them include heart disease. Specifically, two of them were recoveries from heart attacks.

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Dead is dead. Car accident or heart failure - one is more serious than another?

BetteTheRed said:

Dead is dead. Car accident or heart failure - one is more serious than another?

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Not sure why you're mentioning this Bette.

Jae said:

Not sure why you're mentioning this Bette.

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I assume because the bouncing garbage can could have caused a serious traffic accident.

Then there are dead languages ... perhaps hidden in vales alone the rift ... information could be hidden in the myth of psyche ... sort of undercover in the bottomless crevasse ... unimaginable when you have the BS that you stand on a floating vessel that is made of stone!

The stories that could ensue are outrageous ... then the location of the psyche is alien ... could be out there beyond idiot humans destined to kill one another ... or so it appears ... inc ar nate form!

paradox3 said:

I assume because the bouncing garbage can could have caused a serious traffic accident.

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Maybe...? Didn't know that's what @BetteTheRed had in mind.

Miracles ... when people that didn't wish to know ... become alternately cognizant ... of the great unknown!

Bes witching ...